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Shock jock who supported torture changed by being waterboarded... (pg. 7)
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
Is that the statistic? 50/50? Well, if you ask George Tenant, the CIA director appointed by Clinton, even he said the information obtained by waterboarding KSM and the other 2 people lead to more real, valuable information on their plans and Al Qaeda than anything the FBI, CIA, and NSA had COMBINED. Even if it didn't fit within the legal boundaries, which it does, I see no issue doing that to a guy who bragged about beheading journalist Daniel Pearl with a knife so dull, it took a while to saw it off. |
Getting KSM to link AQ with Iraq is not "valuable information". It's getting the guy to say whatever you want him to say. There's a word for that. Coercion? Not strong enough. TORTURE. Muuuuch better...
| quote: | | [T]his is my opinion, even though they [the detainees] were giving information and some of it was useful, while we were there a large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq and we were not being successful in establishing a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq. The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish this link … there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results. |
http://armed-services.senate.gov/Pu...2022%202009.pdf
You know who else we tortured to get information about AQ-Iraq connection? Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi. All this torturing really helps us doesn't it!? |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
That's great. Doesn't make the article any more right. |
It presents legal facts, suppored by statutes and legal precidents... and is written by a former federal prosecuter who's speciality is this subject. If you think that doesn't matter, but your opinion does, then I can't help you.
| quote: | | Right, water boarding some one 183 times does no psychological damage. If we wouldn't do it to our own citizens, then we shouldn't be doing it to anyone, and then claim we hold the moral high ground. |
But in fact, we DO do it to our own citizens... you obviously didn't read the article at all. That was part of what got Holder so tripped up. In the hearing, it was pointed out to him that | quote: | | "if the attorney general truly believes “waterboarding is torture,” he must also think we torture our own Navy SEALs and other special-operations personnel when we waterboard them as part of their training. |
So Holder says, “No . . . not in the legal sense... it's a fundamentally different thing because: | quote: | | we’re doing something for training purposes to try to equip them with the tools to, perhaps, resist torture techniques that might be used on them. There is not the intent to do that which is defined as torture — which is to inflict serious bodily or mental harm. It’s for training. It’s different. |
... and this is where he got caught. Because, as the article you didn't read also points out, it's not "different because it's for training purposes.": | quote: | Look at the torture statute (Sections 2340 and 2340A of the federal penal code) and try to find a “training” exception. There isn’t one. What removes an act from the ambit of torture (besides lack of severe pain) is intent. Lungren pressed this point, and Holder admitted that the training was “not torture in the legal sense because we’re not doing it with the intention of harming these people physically or mentally.” Intent, he acknowledged, was the key question.
Then, Lungren pounced. The CIA interrogators who questioned top al-Qaeda captives like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah intended no more harm to them than Navy instructors intended to their SEAL trainees. In fact, we know that the CIA went to great lengths, under Justice Department guidance, precisely to avoid severe harm. Their purpose, Rep. Lungren observed, was to “solicit information,” not to inflict torture. Holder was trapped. |
Dude.. read the article before you start spouting off.
| quote: | | Bull. We charge people all the time for doing things they didn't "intend" to do. |
Nobody is debating that... it's about the charge of SPECIFIC intent vs. GENERAL intent I'm talking about here.
| quote: | | I'm going on the fact that water boarding is torture. PERIOD. If it was so useful, then the police should use it when they question suspects. I'm sure this country will be a much better place. |
If your own Attorney General can't explain how it is torture at a House Judiciary hearing, because of the legal statutes in place, then you can't either. Sorry.
| quote: | | Mancow was water boarded for what...2 seconds? No surprise he was back in the chair. Is that really that surprising to you? Not to mention the fact that such an argument in no way justifies water boarding. A dj gets back on the air after a 2 second water boarding. Big whoop...Maybe if they did it for 1 minute, then he'd be crying his heart out. |
Hey, you're the one who started this thread implying that because Mankow changed his opinion on the subject after having it done to him, it somehow strengthens the claim that you so desperately want to be true. Again, you might not like it, but the legal definitions stand. |
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| yukii |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
"It must be understood that a Prince cannot observe all of those virtues for which men are reputed good, because it is often necessary to act against mercy, against faith, against humanity, against frankness, against religion, in order to preserve the state."
You should read "The Prince" by Machiavelli. |
Hmm, i don't believe we should act like animals of lower intelligence to 'preserve the state.'
I've read the book. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
Getting KSM to link AQ with Iraq is not "valuable information". It's getting the guy to say whatever you want him to say. There's a word for that. Coercion? Not strong enough. TORTURE. Muuuuch better...
http://armed-services.senate.gov/Pu...2022%202009.pdf
You know who else we tortured to get information about AQ-Iraq connection? Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi. All this torturing really helps us doesn't it!? |
"All this torture"?? LOL!!! 3 ing people total in US history have been waterboarded! It was used on 3 people who had information regarding more attacks on the country. Call it coercion, call it torture... call it whatever you want. The fact of the matter is the question of "enhanced interrogation" has been answered legally, and it's not that Bush or Cheney believed it to be torture or not. It's not to your liking, so you can't accept it. "Waterboarding is torture" is not an official legal position, it is a political statement. PERIOD. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by yukii
Hmm, i don't believe we should act like animals of lower intelligence to 'preserve the state.'
I've read the book. |
Have you really? If the statement you just made... about people acting like animals of lower intelligence to preserve the state... is what you believe the book speaks about, then you are either lying or you didn't understand the book at all. |
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| yukii |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
Have you really? If the statement you just made... about people acting like animals of lower intelligence to preserve the state... is what you believe the book speaks about, then you are either lying or you didn't understand the book at all. |
I wasn't referring to the book- I was referring that to the act of torture, and all the other radicals do. I just believe it's the equivalent of acting like animals.
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
"Waterboarding is torture" is not an official legal position, it is a political statement. |
What makes something a legal position then? |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
It presents legal facts, suppored by statutes and legal precidents... and is written by a former federal prosecuter who's speciality is this subject. If you think that doesn't matter, but your opinion does, then I can't help you. |
Those legal opinions were long ago discarded by the Supreme Court. In fact some of those who wrote them might find themselves under investigation.
| quote: | | But in fact, we DO do it to our own citizens... you obviously didn't read the article at all. That was part of what got Holder so tripped up. In the hearing, it was pointed out to him that [QUOTE]"if the attorney general truly believes “waterboarding is torture,” he must also think we torture our own Navy SEALs and other special-operations personnel when we waterboard them as part of their training. |
NO UNITED STATES CITIZEN GETS INVOLUNTARILY WATER BOARDED. None. Zip. Nada.
| quote: | | So Holder says, “No . . . not in the legal sense... it's a fundamentally different thing because: |
Saying 'having no intent to inflict mental/physical damage using techniques like water boarding is not torture' is like me going out and killing someone but telling the cops, it's not murder because I DIDN'T INTEND TO KILL THE GUY!!
| quote: | ... and this is where he got caught. Because, as the article you didn't read also points out, it's not "different because it's for training purposes.":
Dude.. read the article before you start spouting off. |
I did read it. Reading it does not mean I will agree with it. I don't care who writes it and why. If it's wrong, it's bloody wrong.
| quote: | | Nobody is debating that... it's about the charge of SPECIFIC intent vs. GENERAL intent I'm talking about here. |
Not intending to do a crime does not mean when a crime is done, the perpetrator gets off. I don't know one legal system where a defendant can simply say, "I didn't mean it."
| quote: | | If your own Attorney General can't explain how it is torture at a House Judiciary hearing, because of the legal statutes in place, then you can't either. Sorry. |
Yea, because the whole debate depends on what one guy says...No...
| quote: | | Hey, you're the one who started this thread implying that because Mankow changed his opinion on the subject after having it done to him, it somehow strengthens the claim that you so desperately want to be true. Again, you might not like it, but the legal definitions stand. |
I posted the thread bc people who advocate torture don't know what the they'r talking about. Mancow being one fine (and funny) example. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by yukii
I wasn't referring to the book- I was referring that to the act of torture, and all the other radicals do. I just believe it's the equivalent of acting like animals.
What makes something a legal position then? |
Laws that are written "in the books", so to speak. |
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| Joss Weatherby |
| I heard 9-11 was an inside job... why didnt they waterboard bush? :conf: |
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| Sushipunk |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
Laws that are written "in the books", so to speak. |
Does that include the Geneva Convention? |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
"All this torture"?? LOL!!! 3 ing people total in US history have been waterboarded! It was used on 3 people who had information regarding more attacks on the country. Call it coercion, call it torture... call it whatever you want. The fact of the matter is the question of "enhanced interrogation" has been answered legally, and it's not that Bush or Cheney believed it to be torture or not. It's not to your liking, so you can't accept it. "Waterboarding is torture" is not an official legal position, it is a political statement. PERIOD. |
Apparently, you'v forgot about sleep deprivation, repetitive loud noises, stress positions, rapid temperature changes, sexual harassment, physical infliction of pain to the point of death...not to mention whatever the CIA black rendition sites have done. Water boarding isn't the only depraved activity we'v engaged in. Remember Abu Graib? Bagram AFB? GUANTANAMO!?
They were answered legally? That's nonsense. The Supreme Court pwned John Yoo and the corrupt Justice Dept which went down in flames in its own imcompetance.. |
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| yukii |
| quote: | Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
I heard 9-11 was an inside job... why didnt they waterboard bush? :conf: |
go on.. :gsmile:
*unzips* |
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