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Differences in loudness (pg. 3)
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| evo8 |
achieving loudness
read part 3 of that post, a useful insight into getting your tracks louder |
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| derail |
I don't believe that Cubase pulls the audio down - I'll have to check some of my exported files in Wavelab, but I'd be pretty confident that if I put a limiter on the master channel set to -0.1 output, that Wavelab will show me a peak level of -0.1 dB.
As many people have replied, it isn't peak levels that affect perceived loudness, it's average levels. Also, it's what those average levels relate to - human hearing responds a lot more to the midrange/ high mids than to bass sounds or the very high frequencies.
To get your songs "competitively loud", make sure your sub bass frequencies are under control, cut away low end from everything except the kick and bass, cut high end away from instruments that don't require it, use compression on sounds you want solid and upfront (remembering, of course, that not everything can be solid and upfront), cut frequencies if there are areas of the frequency spectrum that are resonant or boomy (broad cuts, not notching out every small spike - otherwise the mix will quickly become very dull).
If you have a well balanced mix, you'll be able to drive the level up a great deal. Analysis tools are great for learning how to balance/ EQ sounds - grab a ballpark of ten or twenty great sounding songs, save them in some form (some analysers take snapshots of frequency balances, others let you export files you can load into a spreadsheet, where you can set up your own analysis programs). It could be enlightening - maybe you find your pads are always a bit hot in the midrange, and that's what's keeping you from pushing the loudness up. Maybe the sub bass frequencies are out of control. Maybe you've cut too much away from the lead and the midrange is under-represented.
What you're looking for is a solid frequency balance, especially in the midrange/ high mids. The mix will be quite loud without limiting, but you'll find you can put a limiter on the master channel and drive it up very cleanly a few extra dBs. If the mix isn't well-balanced, the limiter will quickly make it distort and introduce a whole bunch of grit. If it is well-balanced, it'll bring the level up cleanly. |
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| DJ Robby Rox |
| quote: | Originally posted by cryophonik
True, but that doesn't explain this:
A mastered track would (presumably) be limited to prevent clipping. @Theran - at which stage is the purchased track clipping (i.e., track, buss, or master)? |
First to the OP.
This is actually the *ONE* biggest question I've had ever since I started producing that has never really been answered.
I quoted Cryo just for comparison.
One thing I noticed about Cryos track (the one he submitted for remix) was how even at low volumes, his sounds are still extremely loud.
(I wished he used FL just so I could take a look at what he might be doing different then myself)
I asked this question in the past about one of my tracks and a lot of people came in saying its gotta be some magical mastering going on, (like whats happening here right now) its an explanation that doesn't explain anything.
I had to burn Cryos song to cd to check in my car.
When his track is on 15 in my car,(just the volume) my track has to be around 28 to sound as loud as his.
If I raise his track to 28 it sounds loud as and solid, way louder then mine.
If I continue to raise the volume on my track the kick washes out and everything collapses sonically. All the sounds are basically crushed together.
I equalize, I compress, I try to clean my sounds as much as I can while keeping them as loud as possible, and I never understood how pro tracks can sometimes sound almost double as loud. And I'm not talking about peaks and avgs.
EVERYTHING is always louder.
If I compress more I'll kill my sounds, I'm already rendering a 0db (because if I render at -3 you might not hear my tracks at all lol)
But this has always been my biggest problem.
I try leaving headroom, I try making everything sit right, panning, lows, mids and his all where they should be and it STILL sounds low, very low.
The reason this pisses me off is this.
And no offense to cryo.
His bass in that track sounds like a very basic software bass line, no special overtones/timbres, it sounds like a real boring generic bass.
But because its clear and LOUD it sounds SO MUCH better. It sounds like it has energy just because he found a way to make it that loud with out killing essential clarity.
I go crazy getting awesome bass patches, clear as , but they are so low that no matter how good the bass itself sounds, it still sounds like because its low.
This is why I understand the loudness wars because I've been losing this war since I started producing.
I'm mixing right, picking the best sounds from the best sources, picking the best levels I can pick, but in the end its always low. Even if its being rendered at 0db. (when I say rendered at 0db I mean my kick is hitting everytime at 0db and so is the bass while the lead might be around -3, pad, -8, hats are usually closer to -1 most of the time and I'm still always tempted to raise levels)
Like wtf do you do after you think you've tried everything?
I cant compress anymore, I cant equalize anymore, I can't put levels any higher, I cant find better sound sources, I cant mix any cleaner because I'm doing all these things to the highest extend possible already.
So its like what can I possibly do now to still make it sound louder? And because there doesnt seem to actually be an answer, I assume its gotta be some high end mastering equipment that only certain people have access to.
I know I'm wrong but nothing else makes sense to me at this point. |
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| DJ Robby Rox |
| quote: | Originally posted by evo8
achieving loudness
read part 3 of that post, a useful insight into getting your tracks louder |
That looks like a great link thanks! Gonna read it right now actually. |
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| Nightshift |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
First to the OP.
This is actually the *ONE* biggest question I've had ever since I started producing that has never really been answered.
I quoted Cryo just for comparison.
One thing I noticed about Cryos track (the one he submitted for remix) was how even at low volumes, his sounds are still extremely loud.
(I wished he used FL just so I could take a look at what he might be doing different then myself)
I asked this question in the past about one of my tracks and a lot of people came in saying its gotta be some magical mastering going on, (like whats happening here right now) its an explanation that doesn't explain anything.
I had to burn Cryos song to cd to check in my car.
When his track is on 15 in my car,(just the volume) my track has to be around 28 to sound as loud as his.
If I raise his track to 28 it sounds loud as and solid, way louder then mine.
If I continue to raise the volume on my track the kick washes out and everything collapses sonically. All the sounds are basically crushed together.
I equalize, I compress, I try to clean my sounds as much as I can while keeping them as loud as possible, and I never understood how pro tracks can sometimes sound almost double as loud. And I'm not talking about peaks and avgs.
EVERYTHING is always louder.
If I compress more I'll kill my sounds, I'm already rendering a 0db (because if I render at -3 you might not hear my tracks at all lol)
But this has always been my biggest problem.
I try leaving headroom, I try making everything sit right, panning, lows, mids and his all where they should be and it STILL sounds low, very low.
The reason this pisses me off is this.
And no offense to cryo.
His bass in that track sounds like a very basic software bass line, no special overtones/timbres, it sounds like a real boring generic bass.
But because its clear and LOUD it sounds SO MUCH better. It sounds like it has energy just because he found a way to make it that loud with out killing essential clarity.
I go crazy getting awesome bass patches, clear as , but they are so low that no matter how good the bass itself sounds, it still sounds like because its low.
This is why I understand the loudness wars because I've been losing this war since I started producing.
I'm mixing right, picking the best sounds from the best sources, picking the best levels I can pick, but in the end its always low. Even if its being rendered at 0db. (when I say rendered at 0db I mean my kick is hitting everytime at 0db and so is the bass while the lead might be around -3, pad, -8, hats are usually closer to -1 most of the time and I'm still always tempted to raise levels)
Like wtf do you do after you think you've tried everything?
I cant compress anymore, I cant equalize anymore, I can't put levels any higher, I cant find better sound sources, I cant mix any cleaner because I'm doing all these things to the highest extend possible already.
So its like what can I possibly do now to still make it sound louder? And because there doesnt seem to actually be an answer, I assume its gotta be some high end mastering equipment that only certain people have access to.
I know I'm wrong but nothing else makes sense to me at this point. |
send us a sample of the track u are trying to compare? i would like to view it in an audio editing programs |
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| derail |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
because there doesnt seem to actually be an answer, I assume its gotta be some high end mastering equipment that only certain people have access to.
I know I'm wrong but nothing else makes sense to me at this point. |
Listen, I totally understand where you're coming from. At least you know you're wrong in this thinking, which means you'll keep working at your mixing technique until you're able to get your stuff sounding as loud as you want.
A while ago I was similarly frustrated - my kicks would clip like crazy and still be nowhere near "competitive levels".
Now I use "Make it Pro 5000 (tm)" - it instantly gives me a pro sound and I have all the babes, fast cars and money I can handle.
Actually no, it's not about "high end mastering equipment". There are many producers getting these hot levels. The majority of the loudness comes from the mixing process, not a mastering limiter.
A well balanced mix can be pushed extremely loud. I recommend comparing your song's frequency balance to those of your favourite (loud) songs. If you can't push your song as loud, it'll show up as a frequency imbalance somewhere - if your mixes are consistently louder in some frequency range than all your reference songs, that's something you'll have to pay attention to, if you want to achieve hot levels. A lot of times (this was true for me) producers push the bass levels up, trying to get this big, fat sound. Too much bass and there's no way you can achieve competitive levels. |
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| mysticalninja |
| quote: | Originally posted by adi_hanson
i have a trance album in the car , and only because i (try to) produce , ive noticed that , anything by paul van dyk sounds the clearest and best , anything by ferry corsten or armin is too quiet and paul oakenfolds southern sun has a very high pitched back noise , sorta like a TV is switched on with no sound playing.
for example (sorry to bore you)
PvD ft Vega 4 - Time of our lives sounds good at volume 15 in my car.
System F's remix of Moby's - Why does my heart feel so bad, needs to be at volume 25 to sound anywhere near the PvD tune.
AvB - Communication part 3 sounds best at volume 20.
CRW - She's like a cat , is a front runner sounding best at volume 18
Cosmic Gate - The wave , needs volume 25 to sound good.
4 Strings - Turn it around , sounds best at 20
Tiesto- Suburban train , sounds best at 20
So you could say PvD's stuff is too loud , but yet it is so clear when loud , even in my average car with its factory fitted cd player.
And when i make a cd of my own stuff , i need volume 25 to sound good. |
did you really buy all those tracks or are they random vinyl rips and stuff? |
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| Lucidity |
| So what is a good rms value to have? I know it will be different for every track or what would be a bad rms value? I have been wondering this for a while. |
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| derail |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lucidity
So what is a good rms value to have? I know it will be different for every track or what would be a bad rms value? I have been wondering this for a while. |
Average rms values don't tell the full story - you could drive the rms values up and have a distorted, bass-heavy song, which isn't as subjectively loud as other songs with the same average rms values.
I just have snippets out of the hottest section of a whole bunch of songs I like the sound of, then compare the hottest section of my song to those sections - just flip quickly from one song to the next, and flip to your song now and then - you'll quickly hear where it's at, relative to your reference songs. Your ears are a much better guide than rms values.
These loudness wars are unfortunate, though. With so much of our art being entirely subjective - one person may love a bassline or lead, another may hate it - at least there is loudness as a measuring stick. It takes some experience to able to achieve loud, clean levels (not loud distorted levels).
If a few fantastic, ultra successful albums/songs come out with a wide dynamic range and the typical music buyer then shuns overcompressed songs, the situation may change. |
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| mfitterer1 |
| I googled around and it seems 12-8 is standard for none raped tracks (i.e. over comp. and limited). |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lucidity
So what is a good rms value to have? I know it will be different for every track or what would be a bad rms value? I have been wondering this for a while. |
There's no single answer to this, it just depends on the style. The RMS will also vary according to what percentage of the song includes the kick and bass, since those will be the loudest elements. If you have a song where the kick and bass never let up, it will have a higher RMS value as a whole.
But if you look at the RMS just in the sections that include kick and bass, anything louder than about -8 or -9 dB starts to irritate me, personally. It starts to sound noisy and wrong after a while. I listen to a lot of trance and techno tunes now and they're squashed down to like -6 or -5 dB when everything is going. IMO loud tunes are only superficially attractive, they tickle my ears and get my interest at first by being loud, but eventually they annoy me with their lack of space even if the music itself is nice. That's just my opinion, though, others may like their tunes more squashed or just not mind. It really comes down to taste in the end, and I may even like a squashed track if the music is great enough to overcome the irritating mastering job.
Here are a few examples of tunes that sound nice to me:
http://jbj.raceriv.com/sounds/other/acidbathmix.mp3 (RMS: -14 dB)
http://jbj.raceriv.com/sounds/other/psysol.mp3 (RMS: -13 dB)
http://jbj.raceriv.com/sounds/other/Halcyon+On+On.mp3 (RMS: -9 dB)
Some might say these are too quiet, but maybe they should just turn up their stereos or stop destroying their hearing with ultra-loud noisy mastering?
;) |
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| Nightshift |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
There's no single answer to this, it just depends on the style. The RMS will also vary according to what percentage of the song includes the kick and bass, since those will be the loudest elements. If you have a song where the kick and bass never let up, it will have a higher RMS value as a whole.
But if you look at the RMS just in the sections that include kick and bass, anything louder than about -8 or -9 dB starts to irritate me, personally. It starts to sound noisy and wrong after a while. I listen to a lot of trance and techno tunes now and they're squashed down to like -6 or -5 dB when everything is going. IMO loud tunes are only superficially attractive, they tickle my ears and get my interest at first by being loud, but eventually they annoy me with their lack of space even if the music itself is nice. That's just my opinion, though, others may like their tunes more squashed or just not mind. It really comes down to taste in the end, and I may even like a squashed track if the music is great enough to overcome the irritating mastering job.
Here are a few examples of tunes that sound nice to me:
http://jbj.raceriv.com/sounds/other/acidbathmix.mp3 (RMS: -14 dB)
http://jbj.raceriv.com/sounds/other/psysol.mp3 (RMS: -13 dB)
http://jbj.raceriv.com/sounds/other/Halcyon+On+On.mp3 (RMS: -9 dB)
Some might say these are too quiet, but maybe they should just turn up their stereos or stop destroying their hearing with ultra-loud noisy mastering?
;) |
I agree with you here cause i honestly think the best tracks are the one that have a nice airy feeling but still sound full/warm. Nowadays the majority of tracks sound as if they are suffocated from overcompression and overlimiting and they tire on the ears quickly.
I like tracks that feel like they have air to them
[[ LINK REMOVED ]]
Even though this track is indeed limited it sounds very spacey. |
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