Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Well, I didn’t really intend to get into this debate (especially since your knowledge far far outstrips my own) but it’s a quiet afternoon at work….
I think the central issue I have with your post here is that there is an assumption that religion caused or created these things, when in reality is was merely the fact that religion was the governing ism of the pre-enlightened eras. I think there is an argument to be made that had religion never existed such great works of art or engineering could and would have been created, just with a different focus or motivation. Sure, the great tombs of the Egyptians were built because of their beliefs concerning the afterlife, but imagine what could have been created had they been motivated by other forces? When I see massively huge awesome church structures all I can think of is how much better that time, effort and money could have been spent. Sure, the pyramids are fantastic structures that everyone knows and loves, but take a minute to think of the thousands of peasants that had to build them; what positive role was religion playing for them? Hell, Yahweh thought it was fine for his chosen to slave away in Egypt for 400 years! ;)
You rightly identify the fact that religious belief was the governing zeitgeist of the time, but do we praise Nazism for building the autobahns? Nazism didn’t build the autobahns, they just happened to be built during the (thankfully brief) era of Nazism.
I'm not saying that religion caused or created these things. I'm simply saying that it was the motivation at the time. Ancient egyptians lived to die. The afterlife for them was filled with dozens of gods and an eternal living. The argument of slaves building the pyramids and what not is false. There was a work system developed where egyptians worked and got paid for their duties and took pride in construction. It was a huge engineering feat to create these temples and scupltures. I doubt it was simply persecution of slaves to construct them.
You're argument for no religion sprouting culture and civilization cannot be proven or falisfied since we have yet to have any isolated culture without a religious belief system. We can talk about the evolution of religion and it seems that human curiousity is sprouted with ideas to philosiphize and experiement. Without the capability of sophisticated empirical analysis, the easiest route was taken for all isolated tribes and that was simply mythology which with some cultures evolved into a set standard religion. shakespeares sonnets were inspired by the unknown and his wonder to intepret emotion and nature. He was more of a thinker, philospher. Not a scientist. His curiosity lead him to his own religious beliefs (although some may claim he was an atheist) His ideas were not empirically based.
When Religion comes to the point where it herds masses and independent thought abandoned, it begins to degrade society. But up until that point it gives people the motiviation to develop a civilization. History has shown it with the rise and fall of empires.
Energy_3
quote:
I'm simply saying that it was the motivation at the time. Ancient egyptians lived to die
and its really no different today amongst the major religions of todays day and age. except that they outline certain conditions in which we must adhere to before and up and till that point in time.
quote:
The argument of slaves building the pyramids and what not is false. There was a work system developed where egyptians worked and got paid for their duties and took pride in construction. It was a huge engineering feat to create these temples and scupltures. I doubt it was simply persecution of slaves to construct them.
to be honest i think that no conclusive argument has been presented with how these monuments were constructed still to this day. Much of what has been presented is still bound up in skepticism. I mean i have heard of theories that the pyramids were build with the use of sound (and, i could even go as far as to support that idea, even as silly as it may sound.
quote:
When Religion comes to the point where it herds masses and independent thought abandoned, it begins to degrade society. But up until that point it gives people the motiviation to develop a civilization. History has shown it with the rise and fall of empires.
Of course, and that is what initially gave religion its strength in the beginning. And, now clearly, it has got to the point where humans are now taking it upon themselves to think for themselves.
Religion pre-occupies to the foundation of mind even for those that refute such propositions as its the roots to our existence.
netroM
Nrg2Nfinit
quote:
Originally posted by Energy_3
to be honest i think that no conclusive argument has been presented with how these monuments were constructed still to this day. Much of what has been presented is still bound up in skepticism. I mean i have heard of theories that the pyramids were build with the use of sound (and, i could even go as far as to support that idea, even as silly as it may sound.
I dont want to hear conspiracy theory bull lol.
save it for buzz aldrin
Krypton
Evolution is wrong because entropy says the universe evolves into chaos so how can atoms evolve into complex self replicating systems?
Playing devil's advocate here.
Sunsnail
Earth is not a closed system.
Next.
Krypton
Evolution is just a theory, not a fact.
Fledz
quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
Evolution is just a theory, not a fact.
So is God.
In fact everything is technically just a theory.
astroboy
quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
Evolution is just a theory, not a fact.
This is the line creationists always use and it is both annoying in that it entails a misunderstanding of science and scientific method but also very self-defeating for the same reason.
Science is ALL theory. It doesn't claim to create unquestionable facts. In fact it is religion that claims to be the source of fact. In fact if we could boil down why science is so much better at describing the natural world than religion it is this very fact.
Every scientific claim is open to challenge on reasonable grounds, every theory or hypothesis can be overturned if enough evidence is provided to the contrary and a better hypothesis is created to describe that evidence. There is an established forum for this discourse (peer-reviewed scientific journals). Only religious extremists claim to have the unquestionable proof, that is entirely unfalsifiable and not open to challenge.
dj_alfi
quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
You rightly identify the fact that religious belief was the governing zeitgeist of the time, but do we praise Nazism for building the autobahns? Nazism didn’t build the autobahns, they just happened to be built during the (thankfully brief) era of Nazism.
while i agree with pretty much everything you said, what I quoted is wrong. The Nazis built the Autobahn, and it would most likely not have been built had it not been for the massive amount of vehicles/troops etc they had to transport.
