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I support my second amendment right because of the Tea Party. (pg. 3)
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| Joss Weatherby |
| quote: | Originally posted by saluyamo
So who are these central bankers? |
:rolleyes: |
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| zDmn |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
the gold standard has a contractionary bias and was a central contributor to prolonging the great depression. it is an archaic relic and only fringe libertarians who dont understand economics advocate its return. |
Only a nut job like yourself would have the understanding that counterfeit money and debt can bring an economy out of a situation like the current. Your feeble understanding of history is no excuse either. You fail to recognize an entire century of boom and bust cycles that are directly linked to interest rates that the Fed artificially controls. There was an economic situation very similar to the current one that lasted from 1920-1921 where unemployment levels were even higher than they are now. In December of 1919 the Fed of NY sharply raised interest rates from 4% to 7% and credit was extremely hard to come by. The most major fix used to combat the problem was a more than 50% drop in government spending. At that point real capital and savings were used to stimulate the economy and the result was the "roaring 20's". Since you havent caught on yet, the exact same tactics that were used to prolong the great depression are being used again to prolong the current recession/depression or whatever it is. It can be summed up in one word "Bailout". The New Deal was full of them. Including the illegalization of real commodities that were owned by the individual. The government doesnt have to ban and confiscate your gold these days though. They just print and borrow away. But in the end the exact same thing results. The powerful people get richer by robbing the middle class through inflation and debt. |
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| zDmn |
| quote: | Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
:rolleyes: |
:haha: |
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| Comrade Stalin |
| quote: | Originally posted by zDmn
Actually, fiat currency is the real "anything goes economics". A gold commodity standard can check inflation like nothing else in the history of banking. Tell me how you would have it. |
We got off the gold standard for a reason I have already mentioned. It does not allow the money supply to change according to the NEEDS OF THE ECONOMY. You have a purely ideological stance on the issue which doesn't lend itself to pragmatism. If you have studied the economic history of the United States before 1913, there were panic after panic, long drawn out recessions, and banks went down with all savings lost. Yea, inflation was kept in check, in favor of a perpetual stagnant deflationary money system, which prolonged economic contractions, and made them more severe. The terrible effects of deflation should be apparent to you by the Great Depression, which occurred while we were on the gold standard.
How would I have it? Elastic currency controlled by the central bank in addition to fiscal discipline on the government's part. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by zDmn
Only a nut job like yourself would have the understanding that counterfeit money and debt can bring an economy out of a situation like the current. Your feeble understanding of history is no excuse either. You fail to recognize an entire century of boom and bust cycles that are directly linked to interest rates that the Fed artificially controls. There was an economic situation very similar to the current one that lasted from 1920-1921 where unemployment levels were even higher than they are now. In December of 1919 the Fed of NY sharply raised interest rates from 4% to 7% and credit was extremely hard to come by. The most major fix used to combat the problem was a more than 50% drop in government spending. At that point real capital and savings were used to stimulate the economy and the result was the "roaring 20's". Since you havent caught on yet, the exact same tactics that were used to prolong the great depression are being used again to prolong the current recession/depression or whatever it is. It can be summed up in one word "Bailout". The New Deal was full of them. Including the illegalization of real commodities that were owned by the individual. The government doesnt have to ban and confiscate your gold these days though. They just print and borrow away. But in the end the exact same thing results. The powerful people get richer by robbing the middle class through inflation and debt. |
nope. try again. it is what i originally stated. the gold standard has a contractionary bias and was a central contributor to the great depression.
| quote: |
In the aftermath of the 1929 collapse, a banking crisis struck the
United States. With a run on the banks came a halt to lending. The
money supply, tied firmly to the price of gold, dried up and massive
deflation set in. Prices dropped and profits and wages drooped with
them. As Jeffry Frieden explains in Global Capitalism, the Federal
Reserve's hands were tied:
Governments searching for alternatives to deflationary paralysis and financial ruin ran into an apparently immovable international object, gold. Attempts to halt deflation and raise prices were blocked by government commitments to the gold values of their currencies. As two economic historians put it, the gold standard's "rhetoric was deflation and its mentality was one of inaction."
While gold standard economies experience constant oscillation between inflation and deflation, resulting in long term stability but short term immobility, fiat based systems experience deflation only under very unusual circumstances but retain extensive flexibility as a consequence. As a result fiat based systems, though subject to the hypothetical malice and incompetence of government, are better prepared to maximize growth and innovation, spur investment, and generate wealth. Moreover, it is through the ebb and flow of this constant inflation that fiat currencies are regulated and through this constant inflationary pressure that their economies grow. As Berry Eichengreen, economist and historian, wrote in Golden Fetters:
The gold standard is the key to understanding the Depression. The gold standard of the 1920s set the stage of the Depression of the 1930s by heightening the fragility of the international financial system. The gold standard was the mechanism transmitting the destabilizing impulse from the United States to the rest of the world. The gold standard magnified that initial destabilizing shock. It was the principal obstacle to offsetting action. It was the binding constraint preventing policymakers from averting the failure of banks and containing the spread of financial panic. For all these reasons, the international gold standard was a central factor in the worldwide Depression. Recovery proved possible, for these same reasons, only after abandoning the gold standard. |
sorry, youre just another fringe libertarian who doesn't understand economics. dont worry you weren't the first and sadly probably won't be the last.
you have said exactly nothing that the TA PDD hasn't already had to deal with before. |
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| zDmn |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
nope. try again. it is what i originally stated. the gold standard has a contractionary bias and was a central contributor to the great depression.
sorry, youre just another fringe libertarian who doesn't understand economics. dont worry you weren't the first and sadly probably won't be the last.
you have said exactly nothing that the TA PDD hasn't already had to deal with before. |
Since youre looking up articles as you go, google "New deal prolonged the great depression." You'll find just as many hits as you did searching for the other article you posted. Im not going to battle you with links that google found. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by zDmn
Since youre looking up articles as you go, |
wrong. ive read all these articles before when dealing with charlatans like you. that gold contributed to the depression is well established economic theory. which you would know, if you understood anything about economics. |
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| zDmn |
| quote: | Originally posted by Comrade Stalin
We got off the gold standard for a reason I have already mentioned. It does not allow the money supply to change according to the NEEDS OF THE ECONOMY. You have a purely ideological stance on the issue which doesn't lend itself to pragmatism. If you have studied the economic history of the United States before 1913, there were panic after panic, long drawn out recessions, and banks went down with all savings lost. Yea, inflation was kept in check, in favor of a perpetual stagnant deflationary money system, which prolonged economic contractions, and made them more severe. The terrible effects of deflation should be apparent to you by the Great Depression, which occurred while we were on the gold standard.
How would I have it? Elastic currency controlled by the central bank in addition to fiscal discipline on the government's part. |
"NEEDS OF THE ECONOMY" is nonsense. The economy doesnt get fixed by artificially tweaking interest rates. Economies are not stimulated by debt. I think you are misunderstanding of what Im trying to tell you. Gold is only a part of dealing in honest money. Im saying that the Fed gives the government a means to inflate the currency whenever they want without the need for legislation. Its was that way before, during, and after Bretton Woods. That doesnt sound like democracy to me. I already told you that the nature of government is fascist. Government will do whatever it can to inflate the currency without causing an uproar. Well that only works for so long. And we are getting close to the tipping point. Look at the numbers. From 1833 to to 1913 inflation was .09% and only that high due to the civil war. This number was found by looking at government spending records, commodity prices, bank deposits, wages, price tags, sale signs, etc. Since 1913 Inflation is over 600% and climbing. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
By an large, anyone arguing for the gold standard clearly does not understand that a large proportion of the preconceptions of a fiat currency apply to them as well. Furthermore, they have not studied history. |
thanks, TA's resident econ expert.
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=494137&perpage=12&highlight=federal%20reserve&forumid=&pagenumber=23 |
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| ziptnf |
| quote: | | From 1833 to to 1913 inflation was .09% and only that high due to the civil war. This number was found by looking at government spending records, commodity prices, bank deposits, wages, price tags, sale signs, etc. Since 1913 Inflation is over 600% and climbing. |
Wait, hold on. What's your point? The government is fascist because Soup doesn't cost a nickle anymore? Inflation was SUPPOSED to skyrocket during the technological revolution. As population/trade/technology increases, inflation will increase. What, do you think cellphones should be 15 bucks? |
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| Comrade Stalin |
| quote: | Originally posted by zDmn
"NEEDS OF THE ECONOMY" is nonsense. The economy doesnt get fixed by artificially tweaking interest rates. Economies are not stimulated by debt. |
Uh, yes they are. Businesses need credit to expand, hire more workers, etc.
| quote: | | I think you are misunderstanding of what Im trying to tell you. Gold is only a part of dealing in honest money. Im saying that the Fed gives the government a means to inflate the currency whenever they want without the need for legislation. Its was that way before, during, and after Bretton Woods. That doesnt sound like democracy to me. |
Monetary policy isn't meant to be "democratic". Voters, and especially politicians, are in no position to conduct monetary policy. The Federal Reserve enables to the government to deficit spend, yea. Every government deficit spends. Nobody is denying too much deficit spending it a bad thing, but again, with the diabolical fascist central bank scheme to rob all America of its wealth...:rolleyes:
| quote: | | I already told you that the nature of government is fascist. Government will do whatever it can to inflate the currency without causing an uproar. Well that only works for so long. And we are getting close to the tipping point. Look at the numbers. From 1833 to to 1913 inflation was .09% and only that high due to the civil war. This number was found by looking at government spending records, commodity prices, bank deposits, wages, price tags, sale signs, etc. Since 1913 Inflation is over 600% and climbing. |
The tipping point. What point is that? We had a -.34% inflation rate for 2009. Your inflation rhetoric is way WAY overblown. Your starting assumption that inflation is inherently bad is your ideological downfall. So what if CPI from 1913 is 100's of %'s. Wages have risen likewise. Again, refer me to the people still getting paid $0.10/hr and you might have a point. |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
You realize that the Fed owes money to China, and we pay the Fed to at some point pay China right, or at least keep the appearance that we can guarantee our over trillion dollars in loans from them?
You take away the fed you are basically taking the middleman away and selling the US citizens or states directly into bondage with the Chinese. |
i don't know if anyone addressed this inaccuracy, but the fed doesn't owe money to the chinese. Any public debt held by the chinese is owed by the treasury. the idea that the fed creates money is usually linked to its ability to play with reserve requirements and bank deposit balances. |
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