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6 months from the largest tax increases in history (pg. 2)
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Dupz
There's no logical reason why the US/Greece/*insert failed state* ran fiscal deficits during the boom years - not when private indebtedness was at its stupidly high levels.

Before the GFC Australia (plus a select few countries) ran fiscal surpluses, allowing it to have zero federal debt - allowing the government to spend up when the going got tough. This saved Australia a load.. This is exactly what didn’t happen in all those countries that are ting bricks right now.. High public debt + high private debt = FUBAR
Dupz
The17sss, the problem with your idea of cutting taxes as an economic stimulus is that it ignores the beautiful law of diminishing marginal returns.. Like your humble corner store, every conglomerate and bureaucratic behemoth is bound by these simple laws. Just as the local store should cut the price of a widget to attract more customers/revenue/profit – so they can expand etc – there is a certain point when doing exactly that is counterproductive and leads to losses. But that's okay, it's an easy and common mistake to make - most democratic countries have made that exact mistake recently.
It’s inherent in the design of a democracy that isn’t accountable to a bottom line, but rather a vote – where people want low taxes and high level of service.
I agree, stop spending money on bull wars, stupid bailouts and ‘stimulus’ on failures and you go a long way in solving your problems - too bad that special interests always get in the way.
pkcRAISTLIN
i really enjoy your posts here Dupz, its a shame we dont get to hear from you more often.
atbell
quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
lol spoken like a true Democrat. I can't believe you're really asking that question. There are a variety of tried and true methods; you know full well that if you decrease the tax burden (especially corporate and capital gains taxes) real stimulation of investment and growth will occur. If businesses have incentive to hire, they add more people to the payrolls, thus having more individuals paying taxes. More people paying taxes, even at a lower rate, means more money going to the federal government to pay down the debt. It's practically a law of physics that taxing an activity depresses that activity. We now have the highest corporate tax in the world, and capital gains is about to go up 160% in January; this will kill investment incentive.


BULL

Where are your numbers? Where are your sources?

1. I want to see corporate tax levels around the world if you are making this claim. State by state data svp.

2. Taxes still need to be paid by someone. Hiring extra workers just so they can pay taxes cost a lot more than just plain paying them.

3. I think it's too late. The world knows that money that gets trapped in the US is going to basically go to paying off debt, money's going to start going out of the US. I wouldn't want to be stuck with cash there.

quote:

Cutting the out of control spending would also help, obviously, as would ending the destructive existences of public sector Unions. Unions have destroyed the economies of Michingan, California, New York, and Illinois.
MINC
quote:
They have hundreds of billions of dollars in unfunded liabilities that the taxpayer is on the hook for. You saw what happened in Greece, right? Same thing. We are constantly asked to do with less, while government salaries soar and their yearly raises always increase... even now while is bad.


Ok, once again BULL

The public sector isn't the problem in the US. I will refer to the June 2010 Z1 report on this one:

Q1 2010 - Debt held by:

Households = 13,542,200,000,000
Business = 10,921,000,000,000
Finance = 14,971,200,000,000
Federal Govenment = 8,166,900,000,000
State and Local Government = 2,379,900,000,000

Total = 49,981,200,000,000

about 50 trillion $

Table D.3 of:
http://www.federalreserve.gov/relea.../Current/z1.pdf


Comparatively, US GDP 2009

15 trillion $

http://siteresources.worldbank.org/...sources/GDP.pdf

quote:

And, spending all our bogus stimulus money that basically went to unemployment benefits, undeserving companies, and to Unions was a huge mistake. As Rick Santelli points out so clearly:


Today's report that unemployment is at 9.5% is very misleading... because an additional 650,000 people are so defeated, they have given up on job searches and have left the labor force- those people are no longer counted as "unemployed" once that happens. The U6, or, underemployment rate where you basically have people working part time with no benefits out of sheer desperation is between 17-22%. Anyone with an economic brain would see that nothing is really being done to help grow the economy. Therefore you must conclude that it's being done by design, (in my opinion- and several others) to create a majority of people dependant on government. It is a fact that the longer people take unemployment handouts, the less likely they are to be motivated to go back to work on their own. Stretching them out from 72 to 99 weeks... now trying again now to stretch it another 6 months on top of that? 2.5 years of handouts? I mean, seriously. And why would the charitable donation deduction also be cut? What's the purpose of that? The only logical reason would be so more people depend on government.


What we are seeing is the unraveling of a system that is a large scale ponzi scheme. Using the Z1 data it is clear that the US in general has been trying to use the same 'tax cuts will bring prosperity' mentality for 35 years.

This is a false notion.

Since 1975 US debt has grown exponentially while US output has grown linearly.

For every $100 invested in the US $10 has been produced ... for 35 years.

The world is going to take a while digesting this because in essence the prosperity of the past 35 years just plain wasn't ... it never was. We were tricked.
atbell
quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
Our economy went into supersonic turmoil when 9/11 happened. We recovered a lot faster than anticipated.


eat it, mmmm tastes good that spoon fed tripe.

The economy hasn't recovered and it's going to get worse. Stop jumping at the daily, weekly or monthly data and look at the big picture. Start by trying to figure out what happens when the US has to pay 1-3% more on bond issues and go from there.


quote:

Although this does make sense, we are not an authoritarian dictatorship (at least not yet, but Obama's doing his best to change that as much as he can). And my money says you'd be cool with Obama emulating China's model, but if a Republican became president you'd quickly be screaming for the ugly democratic process.


Here's a fun US cultural trait, inability to recongnize the value in studying the other. China, Europe, Russia, South America, and even Africa have really valuble lesscons for the US to learn. Just because a system is studied and the good things are poached and applied doesn't mean that it is being emulated. I don't think anyone of sound mind would argue that any system, from anywhere around the world at any time in recorded history, should be coppied and applied to the US as it is today. That just plain doesn't work.


quote:

It's supposed to be ugly and complicated for a reason- so that one person doesn't have the ability to become drunk with power and change everything as he sees fit. It pains me when leftists extoll the virtues of China's communist government. There are virtually no human rights there, working conditions are horrible, free speech is crushed, government controlls all information that gets out, and pollution is beyond your worst nightmares. Take a look at this photo essay of just that atrocity---> http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21...ution-in-china/


Oh, a photo essay, how cute. China is evil, how bad, how monsterous.

The Chinese system is far from perfect, everyone should know that, but China owns the US ... oops. Does that make the US a slave state?

quote:


The private sector's failings are not solely based on their doings. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are GSE's, and just as much to blame.



BULL

The private sector is in much worse health that the US government. As noted, the government owes about half of what US households / finanace owe, and less than what business owes.

Suck it up, it's not the government that is the problem but the people themselves have tied thier own noose.


quote:

Haha... +1. Legislators do what they know how to do: make laws. More and more of them, slowly strangling a business' ability to function. As a business owner yourself, just wait man- you'll begin to see from a totally different angle.


see above.

quote:

Correction: he "was" pretty right wing. Until he became a big spender, grew the size of government, pushed for amnesty in 2007, and basically abandoned several of his principles. By the time he left office, he was almost at John McCain linguini spine moderate levels.


This is like saying that a killer was pretty evil but stopped eating his victims so that's better.

The only countries that are as conservative and anal as the US are Iran, North Korea, and Saudi.

FACT: Conservatives always loose. Why, because they hold on to something that was and time just keeps moving forward. Oh, they did well from about 400 AD to 1400 AD but then there was this whole literacy thing that showed up.

FACT: Most serial killers are conservatives who have trouble accepting change or loose morals. Please don't get mad, just addapt.

quote:

Most Americans lack the understanding of what Roosevelt really did. The eradication of the American historical memory is in full force. I mean, man, there was a Marist poll the other day showing how 26% of us don't even know who we're celebrating our independence from! American's just knew they didn't want another Bush or Republican for that matter, and ran the other direction too far. It's like the teenage girl who breaks up with her strait laced boyfriend and then goes out with the dropout sporting tatoos and 47 piercings. Eventually, they'll be a regression to the mean. (hint: this november ;) )


I agree with this point but would argue that the source of the problems is misplaced.

Education has suffered dramatically in the US. People have looked to getting credentials to get jobs and lifestyle but education is only effective if it is learning.

The resulting assult on education that began in about the 80s has left a set of rubber stamp institutions which have inflated marks to keep thier funding / enrollment up. It's no surprise that a number of the American heroes of recent time are school dropouts. They realized that they were paying for credentials and that thier time would be better invested in produceing than looking for worthless paper.
Shakka
quote:
Originally posted by atbell
FACT: Conservatives always loose. Why, because they hold on to something that was and time just keeps moving forward. Oh, they did well from about 400 AD to 1400 AD but then there was this whole literacy thing that showed up.

FACT: Most serial killers are conservatives who have trouble accepting change or loose morals. Please don't get mad, just addapt.


What the is this nonsense? You just destroy credibility with completely asinine statements like this. Sorry.:sadgreen:
The17sss
quote:
Originally posted by atbell
BULL

Where are your numbers? Where are your sources?

1. I want to see corporate tax levels around the world if you are making this claim. State by state data svp.

2. Taxes still need to be paid by someone. Hiring extra workers just so they can pay taxes cost a lot more than just plain paying them.

3. I think it's too late. The world knows that money that gets trapped in the US is going to basically go to paying off debt, money's going to start going out of the US. I wouldn't want to be stuck with cash there.

MINC

Ok, once again BULL

Blah blitty blah blah blah.......


You're a ing idiot who knows nothing of economics. I run a goddamn company- I understand how it works. If raising taxes was the solution, how come New Jersey, for example, is ever deeper in the red after taxes had been raised 115 times in the past 5 years? If your rationale worked, they'd be in the black. WITHOUT RAISING TAXES, Chris Christie already cut an $11 billion portion of the state deficit into zero by cutting wasteful spending, and freezing public sector union pay... not cutting it, just not allowing another raise like they constantly demand, even while the rest of the private sector suffers.

Good lord! When has it ever worked? Where's your memory of history? Life didn't start during Bill Clinton's presidency. How about after Jimmy Carter got booted out of office, with 12% unemployment, economic malaise, gas lines, inflation out the ass, and a top marginal tax rate of 70%!? Reagan steadily lowered that tax burden and BOOM... 20 million jobs created in 8 years and economic growth like crazy.

It's so ing simple- as I explained before, if you have more people employed, you have more people paying taxes.. even at a lower rate, more people paying into the system bring more revenue to the government. How do you employ more people? Well, when people and businesses have more disposable income NOT confiscated by taxation, they hire, they invest, they expand businesses, they have more discretionary spending they use... the economy grows. Hello! European economic stagflation for the past 25 years as taxes rise and welfare benefits increase. If you sit down with CEO's and actual business owners, instead of listening to David Axelrod or whichever academic elite gives you a boner, you might learn something.
Dale Gribble
quote:
Originally posted by The17sss
You're a ing idiot


No your the ing idiot and I thought you were going to leave, but I guess much like your Conservative heros who say 1 thing and do the opposite- ie:Rush who was going to leave (health care).

How did that Iraq war go? Hmm I recall them "Conservatives" saying the oil would pay for everything, but much like the locals greeting us with flowers & open arms, the truth wasn't that way.

WMD, gee "Conservatives" said they were there- but nope, add in Bush joking they must be under here... real tasteful.

""Conservatives" teabaggers crying about the Constitution but never said boo under Bush... hmm why not?

Just what have you so-called ""Conservatives" done that was good for everybody and not the upper 1-3%? ?

Oh and Jimmy Carter, funny how what he said has come true.

~July 15, 1979.

Energy will be the immediate test of our ability to unite this nation, and it can also be the standard around which we rally. On the battlefield of energy we can win for our nation a new confidence, and we can seize control again of our common destiny.

In little more than two decades we've gone from a position of energy independence to one in which almost half the oil we use comes from foreign countries, at prices that are going through the roof. Our excessive dependence on OPEC has already taken a tremendous toll on our economy and our people. This is the direct cause of the long lines which have made millions of you spend aggravating hours waiting for gasoline. It's a cause of the increased inflation and unemployment that we now face. This intolerable dependence on foreign oil threatens our economic independence and the very security of our nation. The energy crisis is real. It is worldwide. It is a clear and present danger to our nation. These are facts and we simply must face them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The next president came in and promptly removed the solor planels from the roof saying “That’s enough of that!”.
Between 1981 and 1986, the Reagan administration cut funding for renewable energy research and public renewable energy tax credits by 90%.


____________________________

Now I know why I stop reading this forum, ing idiots like YOU.
Shakka
quote:
Originally posted by Dale Gribble
Oh and Jimmy Carter, funny how what he said has come true.

~July 15, 1979.

Energy will be the immediate test of our ability to unite this nation, and it can also be the standard around which we rally. On the battlefield of energy we can win for our nation a new confidence, and we can seize control again of our common destiny.

In little more than two decades we've gone from a position of energy independence to one in which almost half the oil we use comes from foreign countries, at prices that are going through the roof. Our excessive dependence on OPEC has already taken a tremendous toll on our economy and our people. This is the direct cause of the long lines which have made millions of you spend aggravating hours waiting for gasoline. It's a cause of the increased inflation and unemployment that we now face. This intolerable dependence on foreign oil threatens our economic independence and the very security of our nation. The energy crisis is real. It is worldwide. It is a clear and present danger to our nation. These are facts and we simply must face them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The next president came in and promptly removed the solor planels from the roof saying “That’s enough of that!”.
Between 1981 and 1986, the Reagan administration cut funding for renewable energy research and public renewable energy tax credits by 90%.



Did you seriously just quote Jimmy Carter? Damn. But I like how things are taken out of context and spoon fed in such a sinister manner. But nonetheless, it opens an important discussion. If Reagan cut tax credits for renewable energy research, 1) I'm glad to see a government that attempts to reduce its expenses instead of increasing them. The Government is not a good steward of the public's money. 2) Is it the role of government to provide tax breaks and incentives for things that are not necessarily within the conventional definition of what a government should and should not do? (i.e. promote the general welfare, provide for the common defense, ensure that rights are protected, etc.?) When you phrase it like you did (that Reagan cut funding for programs), you convey it in a sense that Reagan killed an entire industry--that without tax credits an industry cannot exist; that demand does not beget market-based solutions...

I am a free markets guy, no shame in that. I sincerely believe that when there is a public need, there is a private solution that will most likely be a more efficient solution than a bureaucratic government sponsored one. I want private companies to make profits and for tax rates to be low because I believe that enabling people to keep more of their own money for their own discretionary use is more positive over the long-term than confiscating more and more wealth for the sake of welfare programs, special interests and government boondoggles. I believe that a more vibrant and healthy private sector will generate more in tax revenues over the long-term that can be used to fund the programs that a government should be pursuing.

Philosophy aside, that's my 2c. There's a difference between an invisible hand and an activist hand.

Regarding Iraq, I'm sure you caught this from Biden on Politico today.

quote:

Biden sees Iraq success for Obama
By: Mike Allen
July 5, 2010 09:13 AM EDT

BAGHDAD — Vice President Joe Biden said after a three-day trip to Baghdad that the American people will see President Barack Obama’s Iraq policy as a success when the “combat mission” ends on schedule Aug. 31. Biden said the administration “will be able to point to it and say, ‘We told you what we’re going to do, and we did it.’”

“I think America wins,” Biden told POLITICO in an end-of-trip interview at the ambassador’s residence in the sprawling U.S. Embassy complex. “I sound corny, but I think America gets credit here in the region. And I think everybody gets credit, from George Bush to [President Obama].

“I think Americans will recognize that there aren’t body counts ... that they got 95,000 people home. That will be noticeable that they’re home."

The chief purpose of Biden’s visit was to prod Iraqi politicians to form a government and end a four-month stalemate that followed parliamentary elections. The vice president said security in the country “doesn’t really relate to whether there’s a government formed or not.”

“The government that is the interim government now — a little like our interregnum period between November and January — is actually functioning in terms of security,” he said. “I am hopeful — I am confident — that in the relatively near term, they’re going to be able to work out an agreement on ... the new government.”

Biden said he hopes a resolution will come “by the end of the summer and maybe even considerably sooner.”

But he added with a smile, “That’s like trying to decide when the Senate’s going to pass health care: They did it, but it” took a while.

Biden said improved conditions in Iraq will bolster Democrats with voters in November.

“They are going to take a look and see that the president kept his promise getting troops home, which will give them more confidence in the foreign policy he set,” Biden said.


Cheers.
Comrade Stalin
We didn't win in Iraq. What did we get? Nothing. So what if Iraq is a democracy? Sun Tzu said it best. "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win." There is no victory when the costs are so high. I for one, won't allow anyone to call our adventure in Iraq a "victory" because it isn't. It's one huge tragedy.



I really wish the Pentagon would have followed this line...

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." -Sun Tzu

The17sss
quote:
Originally posted by Dale Gribble
No your the ing idiot and I thought you were going to leave, but I guess much like your Conservative heros who say 1 thing and do the opposite- ie:Rush who was going to leave (health care).

Just what have you so-called ""Conservatives" done that was good for everybody and not the upper 1-3%? ?

Oh and Jimmy Carter, funny how what he said has come true.

~July 15, 1979.

Energy will be the immediate test of our ability to unite this nation, and it can also be the standard around which we rally. On the battlefield of energy we can win for our nation a new confidence, and we can seize control again of our common destiny.

In little more than two decades we've gone from a position of energy independence to one in which almost half the oil we use comes from foreign countries, at prices that are going through the roof. Our excessive dependence on OPEC has already taken a tremendous toll on our economy and our people. This is the direct cause of the long lines which have made millions of you spend aggravating hours waiting for gasoline. It's a cause of the increased inflation and unemployment that we now face. This intolerable dependence on foreign oil threatens our economic independence and the very security of our nation. The energy crisis is real. It is worldwide. It is a clear and present danger to our nation. These are facts and we simply must face them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The next president came in and promptly removed the solor planels from the roof saying “That’s enough of that!”.
Between 1981 and 1986, the Reagan administration cut funding for renewable energy research and public renewable energy tax credits by 90%.


____________________________

Now I know why I stop reading this forum, ing idiots like YOU.


:stongue:

Man look at your lack of emotional stability. The truth is, I bet, that you stopped reading this forum because you don't believe in diversity of thought, and when people with alternative opinions to your spoon fed liberal arts and/or worthless public school education make you doubt yourself, you lash out. You people are all the same; someone points out truthful realities about life and how business works in the real world outside of politics, and you take it personal... not because you have valid experience to base this on, no... but because your fragile ego can't handle it. History, facts, and logic mean nothing to people like you. You are content to keep robbing the Treasury to pay for unicorns and fairy dust.

I mean seriously, like Shakka said, you quoted Jimmy Carter for 's sake! This is the same guy who's bold tax funded initiative in June 1979 said we'd have 20% of our power coming from solar by the year 2000. And don't blame it not working on Reagan. Clinton introduced the "Million Solar Roofs Initiative" in 1997 that was going to do the same thing by 2010. Get it through your thick skull: Only the free market can deliver "green" solutions. No amount of government central planning, "free" money for solar power and wind farms can create new sources of energy, and it will take decades to do so even at nominal returns.

Couple of quick rebuttal points to your post, before I laugh myself to sleep.

1) Rush never said he was moving/leaving the country if healthcare passed; only that he would fly elsewhere to pay for his own healthcare procedures if and when the quality of State run healthcare decreases.

2) Jimmy Carter's quote about energy independence is full of irony... because we import more oil from abroad now than we did back then, and the only reason we can't be energy independant is because of the bans Democrats and radical enviornmentalists (your ilk) have put in place. We are forcing ourselves, needlessly, to get it from somewhere else.

3) You're a dumb ing idiot.

jdat
the governement has been in debt for a long, and it is only with the current crisis and the sudden drop in tax revenue that it has made the situation more public than ever before.

No one wants to tbe the bad guy and increase taxes because that means losing votes; but people are morons because they don't see further than their wallets.

Yes it's painful paying more taxes, but it's not just a socialist thing as so many people put it. It's an economic reality. States populations grow and with that the costs of operating them.

Too many low tax incentives has had such perverse effects on the governement because the need for money is still there, so there has been constant shuffling of funds between agencies, and resale of governement real estate(fairgrounds, capitols, prisons) etc to make a fast buck.

Today states are having to cut back on everything because there is no tax money coming in. States that are reducing school days to 4 instead of 5 ... or cutting back on basic needs to make things work like roads, fire, police etc.

Everyone is so blinded by being exclusively short sighted that we have not had the outlook necessary to avoid the current crash and burn situation.
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