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Tips and tricks about music theory / composing for a semi-newb like me
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| JEO |
If this thread proves to be too disposable / done too many times, feel free to lock or delete it. This is purely something I need personally. Though the thing I like about this forum is we don't have to bump 7 year old threads to get an answer to something considering the thing we crave information about.
So, I think I know music theory pretty well, but for the past ~two months I haven't really been able to compose anything decent and think there still are some things I don't understand about basic music theory and composing. I want to have you people posting opinions and ways you do things and I want to compare your techniques to mine. And learn for s sake.
Allthough these little "rules" can be really genre specific, every little piece of new information is important to me, so if you like, you can try to describe the "genre" you produce in the most.
1. Scales / modes
- I want to know do you always work on a specific scale? If so, what are the scales / modes you usually work in? Many years ago when I only used to produce ambient type of tracks I never followed any scales and pretty much just used my ears for hearing things that didn't fit in the song. And now many years later I feel those tracks I made when I was like 15 years old were much better than the ones I keep churning out these days. Something just keeps me from getting back to that manner of having no scale to work with, having no chords and just having everything so random it used to..
2. Chord progression
- How often do you write a chord progression on your song? If you do, what are your chords usually like? Are they strictly triads and 7ths and 9ths etc., or do you just combine different notes (a thing that I've been experimenting with for a while)?
- With chord progressions I often come to the conclusion I've heard the progression I just made in too many EDM songs and it just gets me depressed I haven't been able to make anything new. I know it's usually the root notes that dominate the feeling of chord progressions and the 3rds and 5ths and so on are just more harmonics. Though I could be so wrong.
- If you have a chord progression in your song, how is it built? 1 chord for 1 bar? Tell me. I usually go with 1 chord for two bars.
I.E. IV for 2 bars, I for 2 bars, II for 2 bars, so on and so on.
- If you have a chord progression in your song, how is it like? 4, 8, 16 bars? Exactly how many different chords do you have in your progression?
3. Bassline - how is it (usually) a part of the chord progression?
- I mean is your bassline just strictly following the root notes of the chord progression if there is any? I've followed this "rule" for some time now, with just minor changes in the bassline. 90 % of the time my basslines are just the root notes of the chord progression.
- I've had great results with varying the bassline from the root notes, just not too much.
4. The whole fking thing is about how do you keep your composing so interesting you can keep mixing it for weeks? Composing techniques etc.
NOTHING considering ANYTHING about mixing will be posted here, please. This thread is stricly about composing and music theory. Share your thoughts and opinions.
Also I'm slightly drunk now, so I will keep editing this post for typos if necessary.
np. Protoculture - Out Of Reality
and remember.. The moar you know.
Thanks in advance to EVERYONE responding.
edit. Got the first ones already hah |
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| sako487 |
1.I always work in a scale, depends which ones sometimes tho. A minor is a favorite cause its all white keys.
2.Start off with a triad/2 note chords, then move onto 7th or 9th with usually 1 chord on each bar.
3.Bass notes are usually the root not, but, as you said, you can choose a dif note, but it doesnt sound great most of the time
4. I get bored and tired on the 3rd day, somehow force my self to just finish it or make it interesting |
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| BOOsTER |
having a chord per bar sounds boring...why don't you experiment? I mean you could have a chord for 2 bars, then a different one for half, another one for one and a half...etc...
Chord per bar will sound sterile...and computer-ish... |
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| JEO |
Of course I experiment? Even if I come asking for advice, tips and tricks it doesn't mean I never do anything by myself and just print your posts and start doing just like you. Yeah, I'm so bad.
But, considered you had your chord progression like you said, really complex and thiiiit. How would your bassline be? That's just personally why I don't make so complex progressions, I feel like it's hard to keep a consistency in the song.. And the bassline may get too variable.
I'm not asking these things because of slacking in experimenting. I'm just trying to get information about other peoples techniques :) thanks.
Moar please. |
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| BOOsTER |
bassline? Hm you can try copying the progression into your bassline track and follow the root notes most of the time and then go to the other notes for example at the end of a phrase...or bar, or 2 bars, or whatever you like.
Also, a little dissonance can make a bassline really interesting, so you can drift off the chord progression completely with your bassline. (for a little moment) |
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| Stephen Wiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by JEO
1. Scales / modes
- I want to know do you always work on a specific scale? If so, what are the scales / modes you usually work in? Many years ago when I only used to produce ambient type of tracks I never followed any scales and pretty much just used my ears for hearing things that didn't fit in the song. And now many years later I feel those tracks I made when I was like 15 years old were much better than the ones I keep churning out these days. Something just keeps me from getting back to that manner of having no scale to work with, having no chords and just having everything so random it used to..
Understanding scales and modes like the back of your hand is great and will save you time, but we're making sequenced music here so knowing the basics will get you by. Obviously, you need to produce in key. Going out of key is OK if you think it sounds right. Transitioning to a completely different key is fairly rare, and I don't know much about it so somebody else will have to chime in here. But yea, pick a key and stick with it. As far as modes go, there are tons. I personally don't think they're worth learning as long as you know the basic ones.
2. Chord progression
- How often do you write a chord progression on your song? If you do, what are your chords usually like? Are they strictly triads and 7ths and 9ths etc., or do you just combine different notes (a thing that I've been experimenting with for a while)?
Once? I start out with chords and go from there when I produce. Very rarely will I go back and edit my chords or the entire progression. As far as what constitutes my chords, I literally close my eyes and just start letting chords fly. When I hear things I like, I keep hitting them and introducing new ones, and so on and so forth until I have something I think I can work with. Practice, practice, practice.
- With chord progressions I often come to the conclusion I've heard the progression I just made in too many EDM songs and it just gets me depressed I haven't been able to make anything new. I know it's usually the root notes that dominate the feeling of chord progressions and the 3rds and 5ths and so on are just more harmonics. Though I could be so wrong.
Well, this depends on the keys your using if you think you've heard the progression before. If your writing tracks using only white keys, theres not a chance it HASN'T been used before, lol. As I'll talk about below, don't let chords rule your world when it comes to a track. I have a book that lists different songs that use the same chord progressions that are/were huge hits. It even lists songs that used the same melodies. Music has been being made for a long time, so don't expect to be setting a trend in Trance music at this point in your production career. I don't see you talking about chord inversions, which is something I would definately study, learn, and practice. They are key to creating unique, great sounding progressions. They're pretty much a must have.
- If you have a chord progression in your song, how is it built? 1 chord for 1 bar? Tell me. I usually go with 1 chord for two bars.
I.E. IV for 2 bars, I for 2 bars, II for 2 bars, so on and so on.
This completely varies based on arrangement. Best advice here is just practice. Writing different chords, closing your eyes, and triggering them via MIDI is a great way to get some light bulbs turned on. There is no rule here, or really even a general rule, when it comes to chord length. Try not to focus too much on this. Get the chords that you think sound the best first and the arrangements will start to come naturally.
- If you have a chord progression in your song, how is it like? 4, 8, 16 bars? Exactly how many different chords do you have in your progression? I try to stick to 3, but usually end up getting suckered into 4. I personally never go over that. Chords are not meant to, at least to me, to be a huge part of the track. Yes, they are the concrete bottom to the building and are very important, but they are not something that needs to grab people.
3. Bassline - how is it (usually) a part of the chord progression?
Bassline should follow the root note about 95% of the time if you're doing a boring 8th note stab track (deadmau5) - Otherwise, you need to add some syncopation. The best ways to do this are to move the bass forward a tick or two. This helps to create a driving feel to the track (especially in housier tracks) You can also move your snare and claps a tick closer too, and throwing a clap on the second and fourth division that is slightly ahead of the kick will give the track A LOT of drive and really bring out the bass line. I personally don't like my bass lines hitting whenever my kicks are triggering, so I would avoid that completely for now. And stay away from side chaining the bass and kick. Learn to shape your kick and bass so they groove properly without sidechaining. It sounds better and you'll learn more. (Experiment with the kicks release and the basses attack until its groovin') - Getting back to how it relates to chords....personally i rarely deviate from the root note as the basis for my main bass line. for variation, try jumping notes 1 octave up/down, and at the end of your 16 beat and 32 beat divisions experiment a little by maybe adding some quick notes or going up/down with notes. If you are going up in pitch at the end of these divisions it'll give a more uplifting feel. If your using lower pitched notes, then the track will bring ya down a bit. Just depends on the style you're going for. Something that is important with bass is envisioning the track as a whole and realizing how much bass your going to need. Remember your lead and melodies (and chords) must be in harmony with your bass, so if you have a very melodic track going, 3 layered bass lines with each one doing different things might not be the best idea. Some of the most well liked tracks of all time consist of the simplest bass you'll ever see/hear. Ferry Corsten's early work to be precise.
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Here are a few, mostly formulaic and widely used things. I've answered your questions above so they will be in the quote box. |
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| Kysora |
| quote: | Originally posted by JEO
I know it's usually the root notes that dominate the feeling of chord progressions and the 3rds and 5ths and so on are just more harmonics. Though I could be so wrong. |
You are. In triads the third dominates the "feeling" since it determines whether or not the chord is minor, but that only applies to triads. Not to say the root's not important.
| quote: | - If you have a chord progression in your song, how is it built? 1 chord for 1 bar? Tell me. I usually go with 1 chord for two bars.
I.E. IV for 2 bars, I for 2 bars, II for 2 bars, so on and so on. |
That's how I do it.
I think you're in that nasty stage of learning music theory where you have a few concepts down but you don't understand application yet. Robbie described music theory to writing stories: people who understand the concepts of good writing can just write down and apply them without thinking about it, because they just know what would sound good where. Music theory is the same way, but you really need to know a lot about it, or at least how you can apply it to your own work without being limited by it at the same time. That just takes time and effort, and it's certainly not impossible.
Just keep at it and you'll figure it out. That's probably not what you want to hear but it's the truth. |
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| JEO |
Thanks a lot for the input guys.
To Stephen Wiley:
I work in many scales but C natural minor for most of the time. I use chord inversions a lot and know how they work, I think. I know about suspended chords etc. etc..
BUT, what are diminished triads good for? I mean CAN they even sound good?
I worked on a chord progression for almost five hours today, and in the end had created nothing that satisfied me personally. To be honest I think they all sucked. Why is it that a good sounding progression with a pluck can sound just awful when played with a pad? Often I've made a decent progression with a pluck and tried having it play over a pad playing the same chords, and noticed it didn't really sound so good anymore? Is there a reason for something like this or am I just being a jackass?
I suppose I could upload my work tomorrow and maybe have some feedback from you guys.
I've chosen a couple of tracks that have the sound I'm after and've been trying to develop for a couple of months now.
Markus Schulz - First Time (Funabashi Remix)
Alex Stealthy - Something Is Wrong
I admire that certain darkness in these tracks. Though they may seem like absolute rubbish to many of you.
I downloaded a midi of Markus Schulz - First Time and noticed there aren't any chords at all? Just some random 2 notes playing at the same time.
With "- How often do you write a chord progression on your song?" I basically just wanted to know do most of your tracks have a chord progression or not.
To Kysora:
I've only known these basics of music theory for like a year now, though I have made music since the age of 13 (about 8 years). And what I know about it, I have studied myself, so there can be misunderstandings and all.
Like I said I think the tracks I made when I didn't know music theory at all are still sounding a bit better musically than my recent tracks. This whole theory-thing just took away that naive creativity of mine, I think :D I hope it's not permanent. I'll keep practising for sure.
Cheers guys, I really appreciate your help. |
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| cryophonik |
| quote: | Originally posted by JEO
BUT, what are diminished triads good for? I mean CAN they even sound good?
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Diminished triads are usually used to resolve back to the tonic (root) chord, or submediant (vi chord in major keys) in a "surprise" cadence. They contain a tritone (notes that are 2 minor 3rds apart), which are very dissonant and want to resolve in a specific direction. The same notes found in a vii-dim chord in major are also found in the dominant (V7) chord, and likewise wants to resolve to the tonic or submediant. Keeping it simple, the vii-dim chord in Cmaj is:
Bdim = B D F
The B and F notes form the dissonant tritone - play just those two notes together and you'll hear how dissonant they are.
Now, play the B and F together, followed by C and E notes together (i.e., the root and third of the tonic chord in Cmaj) and you'll hear the resolution that I'm talking about. The B note "wants" to resolve up to the C, and the F in the diminished chord wants to resolve down to the E. That's what diminished chords/intervals are mostly recognized for.
Also, as I mentioned above, the same notes in the vii-dim chord (B D F in the example above) are also present in the Dominant 7:
G7 = G B D F
So, vii-dim chords are often a substitute for the dominant 7 chord. All that said, V7 and vii chords don't seem to be used all that much in trance, except sometimes to build back into a chorus (e.g., when coming out of a pre-chorus or bridge). |
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| Stephen Wiley |
Cryo's knowledge confuses me, and I'm sure most too. He knows too much :p
In general, for me, diminished triads are good for creating tension AND resolve. Just depends where you're putting them. |
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| JEO |
| OK. I think diminished triads and their correct use could solve some of my problems. I've especially had problems during the last chord of the progression, as the transition back to the start of the progression has often not sounded so natural. |
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| Mad for Brad |
Cryo isn't wrong but simplifies the matter. Diminished chords are divided into diminished 7ths and half diminished. Only having a diminished chord can take the form of both if it isn't stated explicitly in the text. Where as a half diminished chord occurs naturally in the minor mode on the super tonic and tends to follow the circle of 5ths behaviour(functional tonal harmony context), the diminished 7th ( which technically only occurs naturally in the minor harmonic mode) is much more volatile under normal tonal functionality.
Cryo is right in that B and F form a tritone but there are 4 ways to resolve any tritone. It could resolve as Cryo mentioned to a minor or major 3rd but also resolve outwards to a minor or major 6th.
It is also important to understand that there are only 3 diminished 7 chords in the tonal harmony lexicon. Because the distance between each note is equal, C dim 7 is the same as Eb dim 7, but it is c dim 7 first inversion form. Enharmonically, they are the same. Just like there are only 4 augmented chords at your disposal.
Although there too many ways you could resolve these chords, it is probably best to use it as some form of dominant substitute. It does happen more than people think but often the omission of certain voices make it not so apparent. Tiesto's traffic is pretty much a dialogue between a minor tonic and a diminished 7 chord over the tonic pedal
As far as the mention of scales. You can be firmly planted in a key and use every 12 chromatic pitches in a way that isn't deviating from the overall key whether be by suspensions, non chord tones, voicing an applied dominant. There are also many tracks that do modulate keys from the build to the main drop and back again. There is not one chromatic note not part of any given scale that cannot be assigned a functional purpose within that key.A scale purely outlines a key.It is merely a framework but good melodies weave in and out of this framework adding tension when needed.
As to why i'm back , big project over and I feel generous. |
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