just got to say, is that a dj on 2 turntables.. its gotta be..
ladies and gentlemen of the jury please welcome mr CAMERON PAUL!!!
oh yea.. history indeed repeats itself
Stu Cox
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
Think about it: After the sync button becomes acceptable, what next? How about software that analyses your entire crate for BPM and content and just plays the tracks for you as it thinks best?
I'm honestly quite surprised Stu that you think it's even slightly acceptable.
As you've said, your main reason against it is it leads to talentless people playing sets. Which I totally agree is the case more often than not and a big part of why I think DJs should all learn manual skills. However, I guess I refuse to use it as a basis to judge someone - I'll just judge them based on their performance, rather than writing them off because the chances are they're ... I don't want to miss out on finding a good DJ just because I've ignored people who let the technology do a lot of the work!
You also get a blurry line when people start to introduce live elements - is it acceptable for 20 odd instruments to be kept in time with a MIDI clock, or with Ableton? And where's the cut-off between an arrangement of loops in a live set and an arrangement of tracks in a DJ set?
I'm not saying I consider a DJ who uses software to sync as an equal to one who beatmatches - in the same way that I love seeing turntablists beat juggling but consider that a different attraction from seeing a DJ who uses looping on a CDJ really effectively. And I'll still be pretty critical of anyone who uses syncing but doesn't then use the time saved to do anything more... basically if you can do it manually, you should!
The difference between using technology to beatmatch and using technology to pick your tracks is track selection is a creative process and beatmatching is a technical one... software can create the same results as beatmatching manually, but it wouldn't create the same results as picking tracks manually and wouldn't be able to respond to the crowd.
In fact if someone developed software which could pick tracks based on crowd dynamics, by monitoring the dance floor with a camera or something, I think I'd go and see it. But that would be out of fascination with the technology with my appreciation going to the people who wrote the software rather than whoever hit the start button and I'd probably only want to go and see it once!
IL Duce
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
My assertions aren't based in some sort of nostalgic longing for times gone by at all.
Anyone who knows me or has been involved in any one of the dozen or so threads on here about this subject knows my views come from qualitative and quantitative experiences directly relating to the music, not just as a DJ myself but as a punter.
I was going to post the quotes from those others threads in my post above but refrained as it's been done too many times.
Simply put, something is tangibly lost when a dj plays on laptop - it's the tactile relationship and the psycolological effect it has on the performance of a DJ, which in turn related to the music.
I've given numerous examples, in some cases even of the same DJ over e small period of time, of both their musical and physical performance suffering from the inclusion of a laptop. If I had to pin it down to one thing (and it's actually more complicated than just that), it's a DJ having to interact with a screen, that breaks their connection with the crowd and the music. The action of mixing becomes concious rather than a subconcious reflex.
In general CD or vinyl sets have been superior to laptop sets all things considered, IMO.
Now that doesn't mean someone can't have a good laptop set, and conversely, I have seen CD/vinyl sets that absolutely sucked and had no performance aspect at all (such as Miguel Migs) - I have just found that the vast majority laptop sets pale in comparison to "normal" dj sets.
These statement particularly seem to plame bait laptop DJ's who just handle these comments, but I simply don't give a .
I have NEVER seen an amazing laptop set in any genre of EDM, and a lot of them were blind analysis, as I couldn't even see what the DJ was using, only when I went to find out why the performance was so lacklustre.
And as mentioned, I have seen the same major name DJ perform 4 times over a few months period - two were laptop sets and two weren't. Guess which ones not just sucked in my opinion, but also in the overall consensus on here and other forums?
Anyway, I'm not going to get in a tussle over this. You can keep your laptop sets, and maybe walking out of a club is an exaggeration but not far from the truth.
And btw, livesets are not the same thing as DJ sets. Livesets in front of a computer are different IMO as there is usually a collaborative aspect and so many more things going on technically that it's really a neceessity to use a computer, which in most cases are better suited anyway.
You don't need a laptop to give a great DJ performance, it just makes it easier and gives you a false impression that you suck less at it.
our opinions are not totally different, and the nostalgia comment in my previous post was not necessarily to bait you or be a direct insult....you would just be surprised at how many people i encounter who voice their displeasure at laptop djs for the exact reasons as i mentioned in my original_post.
i agree that a vast number of laptop djs are boring as and lack the basic mechanics for being a good dj...at the same time there are people that use exclusively a dvs and do amazing things with it...a great example would be someone like joris voorn...who is probably one of the best traktor djs in terms of how he uses the program.
i sometimes take a bit offense to the laptop comments, because not everyone using a laptop is relying on the autosync features. personally, serato is not a tool for me to be able to mix easier, but for me to be able to switch across many different mediums more easily. Ii wish i could afford nothing but records, but sadly this is not the case as i have to import a great amount of wax from germany at crazy shipping costs to get the music that i want. not having to burn a load of cds to play with them certainly helps.
i'm no 4 deck warrior (i only have 3 tt's)...but i am confident that i can play a set on them by themselves without the dvs with good results...the laptop only makes sure that i can have the other music in my collection available so i can always play what i need to play and not limit myself to certain tracks only available in a certain medium.
i hope this make sense, one of my favourite beers is ridiculously cheap this week and it is harvest season so i am getting_monged off my while spending my food budget on discogs purchases from shady chavs with good taste in music.:p
edit: this is how you use a dvs like a champ.
[[ LINK REMOVED ]]
laptop or not 6000 people did not stop moving like a prostitute with a bladder infection.
IL Duce
quote:
Originally posted by nortek
yeah it was too complicated for you. maybe youtube might help u understand, do a search there. words can be tough sometimes, especially with dyslexia, so images and videos will maybe make it easier for you. heres some help for you to understand how laptop djeing can be ing awesome:
layering =/= efx from another track...layering = layering.
efx = using your efx unit...lol unit.
off palm...i didn't even bother to watch that.
IL Duce
ummm of course it was possible before...it was just a bit harder.
you should probably find a section of ta that suits you better...like the logout forums.
IL Duce
if you are wrong 3 times in a row i hear that roseann barr will appear and eat you;)
IL Duce
she made you do it didn't she?
IL Duce
DJ RANN
quote:
Originally posted by IL Duce
our opinions are not totally different, and the nostalgia comment in my previous post was not necessarily to bait you or be a direct insult....you would just be surprised at how many people i encounter who voice their displeasure at laptop djs for the exact reasons as i mentioned in my original_post.
That, I agree with, but I'm not one of them, as I eluded to in my orginal post (hence the references I gave). As saif it's simply becuase in my experience as a avid clubber and DJ of over 15 years, I have come to the measured conclusion that laptop sets lack on several levels which constitute a good musical performance.
quote:
Originally posted by IL Duce
i agree that a vast number of laptop djs are boring as and lack the basic mechanics for being a good dj...at the same time there are people that use exclusively a dvs and do amazing things with it...a great example would be someone like joris voorn...who is probably one of the best traktor djs in terms of how he uses the program.
While this may be true and I concede the are many "normal" DJ's who perform like (as named in my other post) my belief is that laptops don't help things to the positive. I think it is just easier for them to use becsue they don't have to worry about CD's (even though any DVS/laptop dj not carrying around a spare wallet of is going to get badly burnt). I don't really care for fx (most don't even use the actual music to their full potential anyway) so IMO all that laptops do is make a DJ's job easier and if anything detracts from the performance aspects which asI said before affects the music in a negative way.
Don't misunderstand this; I HATE the jesus posing twats more than anything else so it's not about "performance" in that respect.
quote:
Originally posted by IL Duce
i sometimes take a bit offense to the laptop comments, because not everyone using a laptop is relying on the autosync features. personally, serato is not a tool for me to be able to mix easier, but for me to be able to switch across many different mediums more easily. Ii wish i could afford nothing but records, but sadly this is not the case as i have to import a great amount of wax from germany at crazy shipping costs to get the music that i want. not having to burn a load of cds to play with them certainly helps.
And I feel that's a cop out and no excuse. The only medium here is music regardless of format, and unless you're playing 7 hour sets in places where you have to play everything from 80's to Rock there's no reasonable excuse to need that much music always at your fingertips.
And it's not about vinyl - much as I prefer it for many reasons, it's just not realistically viable these days.
A decent quality 100 CD stack can be bought for less than $10 and who says you have to burn one per track. I fill a CD with at least 10 tracks and just scribble what on there. It will take you less than 30 minutes to burn 10 CD's full of music and that's more than enough for many options in a two hour crate.
It's laziness and I'm, not going to listen to excuses from people who "Cd's are a pain to burn, or they can get scratched" - vinyl is far more delicate but somehow entire generations of DJ's managed it.
I even like serato, a mate comes over now and then with it and we have fun with it but honestly, we always jam way better when the CDJ's are at least included.
So yes, it does just make life easier and in my opinion, not better.
quote:
Originally posted by IL Duce
i'm no 4 deck warrior (i only have 3 tt's)...but i am confident that i can play a set on them by themselves without the dvs with good results...the laptop only makes sure that i can have the other music in my collection available so i can always play what i need to play and not limit myself to certain tracks only available in a certain medium.
That's great and I'm glad you still have the ability but bear in mind there are going to be a lot of "dj's" who can't and that's not a good thing. But again, in regards to the avalability of music, I find it's a shallow excuse for lazines. It;s not like you throw away those CD's that you burnt, do you?
Do me a favout, next time you see a dj play with CDj's (apart from Miguel migs) look at how much more they watch the crowd that a guy with a laptop between him and the crowd. Once you realise this I think your pinion may shift.
quote:
Originally posted by IL Duce
i hope this make sense, one of my favourite beers is ridiculously cheap this week and it is harvest season so i am getting_monged off my while spending my food budget on discogs purchases from shady chavs with good taste in music.:p
Now that's more like it! :D
In fairness, I don;t mean this to be aimed at you, it's more speaking out loud and I get and understand your sentiments, all I'm saying is that I think the majority of reasons why many (not all) people use DVS are just simple (in many cases lazy) convenience, not to better the actual musical performance and if anything the music is worse off for it, not better.
IL Duce
There is some great music not getting vinyl relases. I've had cdjs and i used them as well...the dvs just made them irrelevant to me. Regardless if i am using real vinyl or control vinyl (and i do use both)...it really isĀ_not that much different than mixing solely with the "real" records.
I can do the same tricks (and a bit more with the dvs, but i'm not a trick dj i'm more of the 1+1 =3 variety), the latency makes it pretty much the same, and i'm being redundant:p
Stu Cox
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
Do me a favout, next time you see a dj play with CDj's (apart from Miguel migs) look at how much more they watch the crowd that a guy with a laptop between him and the crowd. Once you realise this I think your pinion may shift.
So very true. But that's a failing with the DJ, not the technology. Yes the technology encourages DJs to hide away behind the lids of their laptops, but it doesn't have to be like that...
Another list of Stu's tips ;) - just ideas I think are useful, but of course many will disagree!
Eliminate the need to use a mouse/tracker pad/etc in the booth and ideally the keyboard too, so you don't have to be right 'in' the laptop when you're using it - easily done by assigning MIDI controls for just about everything, or using a touchscreen laptop for things like browsing your collection so that it basically becomes a digital CD wallet.
Don't let your laptop get between you and the crowd. While this maybe not quite so convenient, it's important. Either put it to one side or use a tablet/convertible so that the screen's flat on the table. Get one with a wide viewing angle though so you can see it clearly no matter where you are in the booth.
Make a conscious decision not to stare at the screen. With vinyl you didn't need a fancy screen and with CDJs you barely need a screen either - you know what the buttons do and you know what's going on by what you can hear, so resist the temptation to look at the screen the whole time, just glance over when you need to (point 2 will help with this)
Make a conscious decision to look at the crowd more. This goes for CD and vinyl DJs as well: it's easy to spend all of your time when you're not actually mixing with your head in your CD wallet/record box/laptop. I find I actually pick my tracks more quickly and effectively if I have a look around at the crowd and try and picture what I can imagine working well next, then go straight to that in the wallet rather than hunting from page to page for inspiration.
Yes a lot of people switch to laptops to make their life easier, but that's exactly why people switched to CDs. It's just important that they make sure it isn't detrimental.
IL Duce
when i mix, i always stare at my penis....it just makes things less hard:p
