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Semantics I know, but... (pg. 3)
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View this Thread in Original format
| n3lly |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stu Cox
So very true. But that's a failing with the DJ, not the technology. Yes the technology encourages DJs to hide away behind the lids of their laptops, but it doesn't have to be like that...
Another list of Stu's tips ;) - just ideas I think are useful, but of course many will disagree!
- Eliminate the need to use a mouse/tracker pad/etc in the booth and ideally the keyboard too, so you don't have to be right 'in' the laptop when you're using it - easily done by assigning MIDI controls for just about everything, or using a touchscreen laptop for things like browsing your collection so that it basically becomes a digital CD wallet.
- Don't let your laptop get between you and the crowd. While this maybe not quite so convenient, it's important. Either put it to one side or use a tablet/convertible so that the screen's flat on the table. Get one with a wide viewing angle though so you can see it clearly no matter where you are in the booth.
- Make a conscious decision not to stare at the screen. With vinyl you didn't need a fancy screen and with CDJs you barely need a screen either - you know what the buttons do and you know what's going on by what you can hear, so resist the temptation to look at the screen the whole time, just glance over when you need to (point 2 will help with this)
- Make a conscious decision to look at the crowd more. This goes for CD and vinyl DJs as well: it's easy to spend all of your time when you're not actually mixing with your head in your CD wallet/record box/laptop. I find I actually pick my tracks more quickly and effectively if I have a look around at the crowd and try and picture what I can imagine working well next, then go straight to that in the wallet rather than hunting from page to page for inspiration.
Yes a lot of people switch to laptops to make their life easier, but that's exactly why people switched to CDs. It's just important that they make sure it isn't detrimental. |
This post is probably the best post that's been posted in a long long time on here.
I agree with some of the things that Rann has mentioned but the above is spot on.
It's not the DVS system that's at fault, it's the dj. All the above points are vitally important to me. I always set up my laptop to the side of my equipment, even if they're over one of the decks to the left or right, it'll never be set up above the mixer. I never try and look at the screen for extended periods of time, unless i need to see if an effect is on or what effect i'm trying to select.
I use a small midi controller (Dx2) which lets me scroll through my tracks folders and control my effects. I rarely touch my laptop during a performance.
However, i do agree that the above tips are lost on so many people. Just today I was going through pictures on facebook of a recent event and saw the dj's there staring at their laptop. If i see someone taking a picture i'll make a conscious effort to look away from the laptop or at least smile if they are taking a picture. There is nothing worse than looking at your laptop with a straight face showing no emotion.
Anyway, I wasn't going to involved but thought Stu's post needed a little more than a +1.
As for DVS systems being used as a crutch for the lazier dj. I know where you're coming from but again I don't see how having a system which lets you organise your music in a music more efficient way can be construed as lazy. I find it easy to play at parties and events with my DVS system as i personally have an easier time remembering events I've played at rather than all my individual tracks that i've purchased over the years of playing.
Yes a DJ should know all his tracks inside out but that is becoming more and more difficult with the sheer volume of tracks available out there. Of course you keep your cd's that you've burnt in the past but eventually that cd wallet fills up and you make new space for your new tracks. With my DVS system i shove those tracks into a playlist and leave them there. Ready for that rainy day when i remember a few tracks I played from a year or two ago and I'm able to locate them with 2 or three clicks or even better, use my midi controller without even touching my laptop.
My brain finds it easier to pick the correct tracks by associating them with nights i've had rather than maybe a Genre or alphabetically orientated filing system that one may use in a cd wallet.
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by n3lly
This post is probably the best post that's been posted in a long long time on here.
I agree with some of the things that Rann has mentioned but the above is spot on.
It's not the DVS system that's at fault, it's the dj. All the above points are vitally important to me. I always set up my laptop to the side of my equipment, even if they're over one of the decks to the left or right, it'll never be set up above the mixer. I never try and look at the screen for extended periods of time, unless i need to see if an effect is on or what effect i'm trying to select.
I use a small midi controller (Dx2) which lets me scroll through my tracks folders and control my effects. I rarely touch my laptop during a performance.
However, i do agree that the above tips are lost on so many people. Just today I was going through pictures on facebook of a recent event and saw the dj's there staring at their laptop. If i see someone taking a picture i'll make a conscious effort to look away from the laptop or at least smile if they are taking a picture. There is nothing worse than looking at your laptop with a straight face showing no emotion.
Anyway, I wasn't going to involved but thought Stu's post needed a little more than a +1.
As for DVS systems being used as a crutch for the lazier dj. I know where you're coming from but again I don't see how having a system which lets you organise your music in a music more efficient way can be construed as lazy. I find it easy to play at parties and events with my DVS system as i personally have an easier time remembering events I've played at rather than all my individual tracks that i've purchased over the years of playing.
Yes a DJ should know all his tracks inside out but that is becoming more and more difficult with the sheer volume of tracks available out there. Of course you keep your cd's that you've burnt in the past but eventually that cd wallet fills up and you make new space for your new tracks. With my DVS system i shove those tracks into a playlist and leave them there. Ready for that rainy day when i remember a few tracks I played from a year or two ago and I'm able to locate them with 2 or three clicks or even better, use my midi controller without even touching my laptop.
My brain finds it easier to pick the correct tracks by associating them with nights i've had rather than maybe a Genre or alphabetically orientated filing system that one may use in a cd wallet.
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Stud tips are indeed good, I think you're right Steve in that it's the DJ's fault, but there is an intrinsic problem with the fact you have to conciously be aware and actively adjust your behaviour simply because the medium essentially "gets in the way" or detracts from the DJ performance.
I think what I 'm saying is that the format acts as a barrier between you and loose interaction with the crowd, unless you specifically tell yourself not to let it. It's a psychological barrier as well as physical, and you're absolutely right about photos of DJ's - I find it really depressing to see a big name DJ "rocking" (ahem) a club by staring at a computer screen as if they are finishing their tax report in their cubicle back at the office.
While I don't think using a format like this is bad to arrange the music when done and used well, I think far more use it as a crutch from laziness and maybe that's why I have such a negative opinion of laptop DJ'; You don't need to learn the track because you know the waveform and key. You don't need to beatmatch because it can sync. You don't need to think about selection carefully because you can have your entire music collection there in front of you.
Basically, these things make DJ'ing worse, not better. You don't need you entire collection to play for a couple of hours - most Dj's only need, what a 100 tracks for 3 hours worth of many selection options?- you don't need a terrabyte of mp3's so I don't find that a vlid reason. And this mentality leads to sloppy track selection and less effort in to really knowing the music and both what and how you play.
It will be a select few that actually use the format in the right way to better the music, but even then as I've said in other posts, I have far more enjoyed DJ's sets which were just done on CDJ's and vinyl.
Maybe my brain is weird, but I recognise tracks by their name or the visual image (even how my sharpie marker scribble looks) on the CD, in the same wqay I can look at the sllev of one of my old tracks and hear the tune in my head. That could be another reason I find latop DJ souless - you're just looking at names in an XL type spreadsheet. |
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| DJ Eddie Lee |
Ok, I'm gonna try to be diplomatic here....I'm from the old school. I had a residency at Avalon In Boston, then in Avalon NYC from 2000-2006. I got my first set of TTs in 1997 and learned to play hip hop on vinyl.....And it from TT DJing that all other DJing and all other current DJ setups are based on, even digital DJing. In 2001 when the CDJ first came to rise, I shunned it and thought it was a form of cheating. When I got my residency in Avalon NYC in 2003, I realized that I had no choice but to embrace CDJs and digital DJing b/c vinyl, let's face it was becoming obsolete. Lugging around huge bags of records was a titanic pain in the ass and all the big time DJs were handing out CDs with new music, not passing around vinyl. Well at least not by 2003. CD technology was improving and by 2005, the CDJ was the new club standard and DJs needed to embrace new technology in order to push the boundaries of sound and performance. My final gigs in 05-06 were purely off of CDs and by then I had wished I had embraced those CDJs earlier.
Now, let's face it once again, CDs are now obsolete. I still LOVE the feel of vinyl and those solid CDJ platters of the CDJ 1000s but c'mon, better technology is out there. I first flirted with Traktor using the audio interface and using CDJs but now I don't even bother with the CDJs. There's just no point to it other than trying to hold onto that "pure DJ feel." Like I said, there's nothing quite like vinyl and I spun an old school hip hop set in my apt for a few friends last year and it was a F-ing blast but it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense anymore. Perhaps in my old age I'm getting lazy and want some sort of convenience, but it really goes beyond that. The technological capabilities of digital DJing far exceed that of conventional TTs or CDs. Who cares what the DJ is using anymore? As long as the music is good and the creativity is there, I say let the DJ work his magic. I've still seen a few DJs using vinyl ie Lee Burridge, Sven Vath, and I applaud them b/c in the end, their music is dope.
Those of you who still think that laptop DJing is for losers, I respect that. I had a very hard time embracing it at first as I did with switching over to CDs almost a decade ago. I had the opportunity to use the new CDJ 2000's and man, they are wicked. So are the CDJ 900s for those who don't wanna drop 1800 on the 2000s. I guess my point is that there's nothing wrong with using any form of media as long as the music rocks and the DJ is creative.
As for multiple deck mixing on TTs, man, I really miss that. I once played with Jeff Mills at Avalon in 2004 and got to witness what he does live and up close. He's a mixing machine. Mixing 3 TTs for a few minutes here and there is not difficult at all, but he did it for three hours straight. And back in 2005 I played with Chris Liebing and at that time he was flirting with a program called vinyl scratch and when I played with him again in 2006 he had gone completely digital using something I'd never seen before.
I still have my TTs and CDJs and will probably never part with them. But I'll admit that I now use and love traktor. I've been doing a lot of research on the new Traktor Kontrol S4 and if it is what I think it is, let's just say I'll be moving onto that when it comes out. |
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| nefardec |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
A decent quality 100 CD stack can be bought for less than $10 and who says you have to burn one per track. I fill a CD with at least 10 tracks and just scribble what on there. It will take you less than 30 minutes to burn 10 CD's full of music and that's more than enough for many options in a two hour crate.
It's laziness and I'm, not going to listen to excuses from people who "Cd's are a pain to burn, or they can get scratched" - vinyl is far more delicate but somehow entire generations of DJ's managed it.
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That's such BS.
You don't have to do anything to vinyl, you buy it and then stick it on the nib.
I used CDs for years and it was just horrible. CD Burning to a proper quality takes a long time, and I was often finding myself frantically burning CDs up until 10 min before I had to be at a gig, only to have lost CDs or had them scratched by the time I returned. The other complication was that I had to rename all of the tracks and organize them on the CDs according to Key and BPM. I was burning 10 cds per track, and with something like 2500-3000 purchased downloads, the CD thing becomes really ing unmanageable. In fact, I had to create a ing database to manage it. Until I created the database I was flipping through stacks of paper that I had to print out from ing excel files to look for tracks, and use my cell phone to read the 8 point font whilst being high and drunk. The database made it better, but I had to start carrying around a laptop with me (someone else's because I didnt own one), and at a certain point I was like, why not just use Serato?
I also play/collect quite a bit of vinyl, so I bought serato and it's pretty much the best thing I've done DJ equipment-wise. You can hide the bull waveforms and just have a full screen track listing, with a really responsive library screen that allows me to organize my music. I even wrote a script that allows me to import my vinyl track database into serato so that I can find tracks that are only on Vinyl (not ripped) using serato's search and organization, and record the tracks in the same tracklist/session. Since I have a fair amount of both digital and vinyl music, and I always want to select from both, no longer having to lug around and struggle to fit a CDJ coffin between two technics is a huge plus. Add to that the sound quality upgrade, integrated recording, and the fact that I no longer have to burn CDs and carry around 3 heavy metal boxes filled with them to gigs...
I simply don't see why anyone would use CDs anymore.
And I am a DJ much of the older-school two tracks, no effects, thoughtful programming. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
That's such BS.
You don't have to do anything to vinyl, you buy it and then stick it on the nib.
I used CDs for years and it was just horrible. CD Burning to a proper quality takes a long time, and I was often finding myself frantically burning CDs up until 10 min before I had to be at a gig, only to have lost CDs or had them scratched by the time I returned. The other complication was that I had to rename all of the tracks and organize them on the CDs according to Key and BPM. I was burning 10 cds per track, and with something like 2500-3000 purchased downloads, the CD thing becomes really ing unmanageable. In fact, I had to create a ing database to manage it. Until I created the database I was flipping through stacks of paper that I had to print out from ing excel files to look for tracks, and use my cell phone to read the 8 point font whilst being high and drunk. The database made it better, but I had to start carrying around a laptop with me (someone else's because I didnt own one), and at a certain point I was like, why not just use Serato?
I also play/collect quite a bit of vinyl, so I bought serato and it's pretty much the best thing I've done DJ equipment-wise. You can hide the bull waveforms and just have a full screen track listing, with a really responsive library screen that allows me to organize my music. I even wrote a script that allows me to import my vinyl track database into serato so that I can find tracks that are only on Vinyl (not ripped) using serato's search and organization, and record the tracks in the same tracklist/session. Since I have a fair amount of both digital and vinyl music, and I always want to select from both, no longer having to lug around and struggle to fit a CDJ coffin between two technics is a huge plus. Add to that the sound quality upgrade, integrated recording, and the fact that I no longer have to burn CDs and carry around 3 heavy metal boxes filled with them to gigs...
I simply don't see why anyone would use CDs anymore.
And I am a DJ much of the older-school two tracks, no effects, thoughtful programming. |
I'll refer you to my previous post
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
s sake. Seriously people. You find CD's too hard to manage.
it. Just bring your ipod to a gig and peter hook it.
Just get a ing sharpie, write the track name on the mother ing CD and look at the CD text on the CDJ.
Is it too much to ing ask to maybe listen to your track once so you *might* know it. And organise your music?
Oh no. You need a ing waveform display. And gay, pretty little CD labels. And a ing laptop to tell you when to mix it. And a ing DVS to show you what ing key it's in.
Jesus H ing Christ on a god damn ing tricycle. What happened to DJ'ing? When did it become as interesting as filing your tax return?
Just take CD's, vinyl, pen drive, even ing wax cylinders - just stop being so ing lame and play some god damn interesting music and mix it well.
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It's excatly the database making, over organisation, and over thinking of planning little music databases that I think is so ing lame about modern DJ's.
I'm oldschool as well. I got my first decks in 95', my first 1200's in 97, and my first Cdj's in 2000. I still have both TT's and CDj's and I really enjoy serato when my mate brings it over but it in no enhances the DJ'ing over us just bangin it out on the TT's CDJ's (and we use all three at the same time).
Your point about vinyl also makes no sense - vinyl, much as I LOVE it, is very difficult to get these days (and I live in both london and LA), it's heavy to lug around and expensive in relative terms, not mention fragile (heat, scratches etc.)
I burn all my budget brand CD's at 8x on my imac and I've never had a single problem with any tracks. I scribble straight on to the cd (track name mix and artisit) with a sharpie, Shove it in a wallet or sleeve, job done.
I find it amazing you have so many problem with something so simple.
I don't know about you but most clubs I've played in don't require me to lug my own DJ setup decks in a giant coffin, so maybe you're a mobile jock, and need your whole collection there for when the groom's mother comes up and says do you have any "proper" music in which case I agree and think bring your laptop and your database everywhere.
Anyone who says CD's are annoying or a struggle, just needs to get a grip.
As i said for mobile DJ's I see the clear advantages because you need so much music to cater to everyone over a long period, but for DJ's playing a couple hours of EDM, I just think it's sheer laziness.
These points aside, I don't know any DJ worth their salt that doesn't carry around a CD wallet as a backup. A lot of the top names in fact carry around a second backup laptop as well.
The technology for laptop sets are just not reliable enough: interfaces fail far too often (Nelly will tell you about that one), drives fail often and if you look at the stats on laptop hardware failures they are actually becoming more common (currently one third of all laptop will die within 3 years).
Even serato, which we use on my rock solid imac crashes every so often
and we have to restart it.
That's just not acceptable to me in a club environment, where you're getting paid to perform.
Combine these points with the issues that it causes DJ's in terms of performance as stated in my previous post and I just can't see the justification for it.
@eddie Lee - while I understand your sentiments, you're completely misguided if you think CDJ's are obsolete. TT's may well be (even though most clubs still have a pair in case a DJ requests), but I've have not to date seen a club without at least a apir of CDj's. You'd have to be a complete ing moron as the house engineer or promoter to just have laptop hookups to controller/mixer.
Personally I'd happily abandon CD's if the CDJ's could just be used with USB drives - from what I've seen, it looks promising but it's not there (issues with the connectors failing, the track access is clunky, still waay overpriced etc.)
Basically, I'm not some kind of ludite against technology, just that the technology is not up to it yet and I feel the main reasons for most people adopting DVS is simply laziness, rather than a direct need or to enhancing the experience or music beyond what they could do without it. |
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| nefardec |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
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Obviously when I play a vinyl-only set I don't need a database because I am managing only a few records with recognizable colors, shapes, textures, and one dimensional sorting.
CDs all look exactly the same, and it's nigh-on impossible to read details of 10+ tracks on that little donut-shaped surface, when you're desperate to find that perfect track. You could make the argument that its unnecessary to bring all your CDs with you to a gig, thereby simplifying the searching process, but the problem I ran into with CDs is that I was often forced to bring most all of them because maybe there was one track on a CD of 12 that I really liked, not to mention several doubles so that I could play two tracks recently bought and thus placed on the same CD back to back. When I play out, I mostly play extended sets of 4 hours to as much as 8, and I cover a lot of terrority (dub, ambient, funk, psych, house, techno, jazz, etc) This means it's advantageous to have a lot of music at my disposal. It would be different if I were one of these deejays who only plays like an hour set of 10 of the hottest tech house tracks or something.
If you want to talk about old school, the first Deejays had entire music libraries behind them at clubs, because the libraries were owned by the clubs.\
| quote: | | Basically, I'm not some kind of ludite against technology, just that the technology is not up to it yet and I feel the main reasons for most people adopting DVS is simply laziness, rather than a direct need or to enhancing the experience or music beyond what they could do without it. |
:haha:
Yes, you absolutely are a luddite if you feel the main reason is laziness. By that same logic, you would be up in arms about people taking the subway instead of walking over the bridge or taking care of a horse. Yeah, it makes things faster and facilitates a higher complexity and amount of information.
Why are you even on this messageboard? You should be sending us telegraphs stop How lazy of you stop
Also, I cant count the number of times I've seen a DJ set get ed up by a skipping CD, or a broken CDJ. Computers do crash, but when you play both DVS and vinyl, it's no problem. |
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| nefardec |
Hey guys, I think DJ RANN is actually the 'Rain-man'
That track was produced on a ..... wednesday |
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| shaminii |
| I'd like to know what 'creative' things you guys do since Traktor does the syncing? |
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| orTofønChiLd |
| quote: | Originally posted by nortek
i agree with whoever said that burning cds and putting on tracktitles on them is a pain. i hated that and was the reason i sold all the dj gear and gave up (after giving up vinyl because of cost and availability). so for now, im not djeing even though i miss it as hell. i was never good though so it doesnt matter. |
some krk's will boost your sound inevitably |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by nefardec
Obviously when I play a vinyl-only set I don't need a database because I am managing only a few records with recognizable colors, shapes, textures, and one dimensional sorting.
CDs all look exactly the same, and it's nigh-on impossible to read details of 10+ tracks on that little donut-shaped surface, when you're desperate to find that perfect track. You could make the argument that its unnecessary to bring all your CDs with you to a gig, thereby simplifying the searching process, but the problem I ran into with CDs is that I was often forced to bring most all of them because maybe there was one track on a CD of 12 that I really liked, not to mention several doubles so that I could play two tracks recently bought and thus placed on the same CD back to back. When I play out, I mostly play extended sets of 4 hours to as much as 8, and I cover a lot of terrority (dub, ambient, funk, psych, house, techno, jazz, etc) This means it's advantageous to have a lot of music at my disposal. It would be different if I were one of these deejays who only plays like an hour set of 10 of the hottest tech house tracks or something.
If you want to talk about old school, the first Deejays had entire music libraries behind them at clubs, because the libraries were owned by the clubs.\
:haha:
Yes, you absolutely are a luddite if you feel the main reason is laziness. By that same logic, you would be up in arms about people taking the subway instead of walking over the bridge or taking care of a horse. Yeah, it makes things faster and facilitates a higher complexity and amount of information.
Why are you even on this messageboard? You should be sending us telegraphs stop How lazy of you stop
Also, I cant count the number of times I've seen a DJ set get ed up by a skipping CD, or a broken CDJ. Computers do crash, but when you play both DVS and vinyl, it's no problem. |
Excuses, Excuses :rolleyes:
OK so I don't have a brain or eye problem that stops me from being able to read my chicken scribble on CD in near complete darkness - maybe you do, but it has never phased me, ever. So don't try that as an excuse. I've got CD's knocking around a drawer (unprotected) that are several years old that I still play out with no problems, so I suggest, stop using them as ashtrays or look after your DJ kit more and you probably won't have so many issues with CDJs'.
And I prefer to have one CD skip (not that mine hardly ever do) than my entire music collection be unavailable because the laptop, interface or hard drive died.
Anyway, as I said you're one of the few exceptions because your a mobile DJ that has to play everything at functions, weddings etc. then I completely get it, but there's just no excuses for DJ's who play a few hours of EDM.
Especially because they play week in, week out, and their crate is made up of stuff the know - old things leave it and new thing go in but a lot is stuff stays for a while that gets played again and again.
So yes, my argument is that it is completely unecessary to bring your entire CD collection to a gig when you're only playing a few hours of EDM, most of which should be music you're familiar with.
All you need to know is the track name and mix, which really isn't hard to see on a CD if you right in capitals. I do exactly this with about 10 tracks per CD, and don't forget worse come to worse you've also got the CD text data to fall back on even if you can't quite read it.
I'm sorry but all I'm hearing is excuses for lazy DJ's (apart from those mobile DJ's who need a huge amount of various genre material to play at a very long event).
Everyone else, get a ing grip and stop moaning about CD's. It takes no tiem to do a very simple and quick CD organisation.
as for your subway analogy, please :rolleyes:
It's more like having a computer drive your car for you - yes maybe you'll get tired if you have to drive in a straight line for 10 hours straight and then it's useful but for a quick 2 or 3 hour drive I think we can all manage to steer, brake and accelerate when needed.
And very good point from Shamini - please tell me what tracktor does that I can't do creatively and really easily with decks and a mixer. |
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| orTofønChiLd |
| DJRANN 1 - nefardec 0 |
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