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CDJ 850 vs CDJ1000 mk3 (pg. 3)
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| Ryan0751 |
CDJ's are and always have been digital :)
We need a new term. PC-based?
I'm glad I have CDJ-2000's. The feel is great. And nobody is going to replicate my Rane Rotary mixer with a controller. Just not the same.
But if you are short on space or need to be portable, the new controllers are pretty awesome. |
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| Stu Cox |
| quote: | Originally posted by skip
I would think these would feature 14-bit MIDI. |
I just did a bit of digging and found a few references saying it is 14-bit MIDI, but none of them are official comments from Pioneer and they
haven't mentioned higher resolution in any of the videos I've seen.
14-bit MIDI isn't really a standard anyway, it's just the idea of using 2 MIDI signals at once to give you a double-precision value, but both the controller and the software need to interpret those two signals in the same way. Traktor doesn't normally allow you to combine MIDI messages in any special way, so I'm not convinced it would be able to take advantage of it anyway unless it uses a special protocol. The DDJ-T1 does come with a special edition of Traktor, so it's possible that's the case, although everything I've read suggests that's just a cut-down version of Traktor Pro with special support for needle search. |
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| Rebel Brown |
| I'm pretty sure Traktor does support 14-bit MIDI, at least I can remember reading it somewhere when the VCI-300 came out (don't hold me to that, though). |
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| skip |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stu Cox
I just did a bit of digging and found a few references saying it is 14-bit MIDI, but none of them are official comments from Pioneer and they
haven't mentioned higher resolution in any of the videos I've seen.
14-bit MIDI isn't really a standard anyway, it's just the idea of using 2 MIDI signals at once to give you a double-precision value, but both the controller and the software need to interpret those two signals in the same way. Traktor doesn't normally allow you to combine MIDI messages in any special way, so I'm not convinced it would be able to take advantage of it anyway unless it uses a special protocol. The DDJ-T1 does come with a special edition of Traktor, so it's possible that's the case, although everything I've read suggests that's just a cut-down version of Traktor Pro with special support for needle search. |
From what I've understood it's not a double precision value, but 2^7 times precise value. Anyway, they should standardise it or some other more precise way of mapping sliders as 128 messages is not enough for a pitch slider. Gotta say that I'm rather surprised that it took this long for 14-bit MIDI to start becoming more used as I really doubt anyone is satisfied with a 7-bit MIDI pitch slider. I guess people just use the sync button then.  |
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| dj_macgyver |
couldn't it be possible that it's not running as a midi controller at all, but as a HID device, just like the cdjs (or the X1 afaik) when you hook them up?
or, to put a different question: what pitch precision does one achieve with a cdj2000 when it's used as a controller for traktor?
edit: one more question: is there anybody out there who would let me find out? :toothless |
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| Rodri Santos |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stu Cox
If the pitch sliders are typical MIDI controls, which I expect they are, they're encoded as 7-bits, i.e. allow 128 values. In Traktor you can adjust the pitch range, so with a range of +/-8% you'll have a resolution of 0.125% (bigger pitch range, less accuracy)
So it's a lot worse than a CDJ.
You can get pretty good control over the pitch range in Traktor, so you could opt for a smaller range to improve your resolution, but to get a resolution of 0.02% your pitch range would have to be just +/-1.28%
This isn't a limitation of Traktor, it's a limitation of MIDI... the Kontrol S4 would give you much better resolution as it talks to Traktor using a different protocol called NHL (as far as I'm aware the Pioneer controller doesn't use NHL) |
I use traktor with a bcd3000 for my "home sets" going digital actually saves sometimes when you want to drop a casual mix of something but i agree the feeling of cdjs is more realistic, i don't know why but cdj 100/200/400 are completely different in this aspect to the 800/900/1000/2000... and all the "big platter" ones, i don't scracth but the cue button is tigther, the platter moves smoother...
When i'm missing the point, the midi limitation of 0'125 is painful, it's about 0.15 bpms which is a lot, in 10 seconds or so the beats unmatch again, but you can use your mouse (yes, you buy a midi controller to use the mouse) and adjust the pitch manually on the screen, and this works well, i don't know the resolution exactly but i get my tracks synced within a difference of 0.02 or so, you can make a full lenght mashup with this just by moving the platter ocasionally or riding the pitch from time to time. |
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| Rodri Santos |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stu Cox
If the pitch sliders are typical MIDI controls, which I expect they are, they're encoded as 7-bits, i.e. allow 128 values. In Traktor you can adjust the pitch range, so with a range of +/-8% you'll have a resolution of 0.125% (bigger pitch range, less accuracy)
So it's a lot worse than a CDJ.
You can get pretty good control over the pitch range in Traktor, so you could opt for a smaller range to improve your resolution, but to get a resolution of 0.02% your pitch range would have to be just +/-1.28%
This isn't a limitation of Traktor, it's a limitation of MIDI... the Kontrol S4 would give you much better resolution as it talks to Traktor using a different protocol called NHL (as far as I'm aware the Pioneer controller doesn't use NHL) |
I use traktor with a bcd3000 for my "home sets" going digital actually saves sometimes when you want to drop a casual mix of something but i agree the feeling of cdjs is more realistic, i don't know why but cdj 100/200/400 are completely different in this aspect to the 800/900/1000/2000... and all the "big platter" ones, i don't scracth but the cue button is tigther, the platter moves smoother...
Well i'm missing the point, the midi limitation of 0'125 is painful, it's about 0.15 bpms which is a lot, in 10 seconds or so the beats unmatch again, but you can use your mouse (yes, you buy a midi controller to use the mouse) and adjust the pitch manually on the screen, and this works well, i don't know the resolution exactly but i get my tracks synced within a difference of 0.02 or so, you can make a full lenght mashup with this just by moving the platter ocasionally or riding the pitch from time to time. |
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| Stu Cox |
| quote: | Originally posted by skip
From what I've understood it's not a double precision value, but 2^7 times precise value. Anyway, they should standardise it or some other more precise way of mapping sliders as 128 messages is not enough for a pitch slider. Gotta say that I'm rather surprised that it took this long for 14-bit MIDI to start becoming more used as I really doubt anyone is satisfied with a 7-bit MIDI pitch slider. I guess people just use the sync button then. |
Yeah you're right, it's 128 times more precise.
Just found this in the Traktor manual:
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High Resolution MIDI (14-bit MIDI messages or 2 byte MIDI messages) available on many controllers, such as high-resolution Pitch Faders, are supported by TRAKTOR. You can assign high-resolution MIDI faders to TRAKTOR parameters in the same manner
as normal MIDI faders, utilizing MIDI Learn.
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Still not sure how Traktor can tell the difference between a '14-bit' signal and 2 separate signals from different controls as 14-bit MIDI is just sent as 2 messages, but either way it looks like if the Pio supports it you're fine!
If that's the case, on +/-8% you'll get 0.001% precision, which is nice. Of course your fingers probably can't move the slider that precisely... nice to know you're the limitation rather than your kit though! |
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| feelgood |
| quote: | Originally posted by Stu Cox
If the pitch sliders are typical MIDI controls, which I expect they are, they're encoded as 7-bits, i.e. allow 128 values. In Traktor you can adjust the pitch range, so with a range of +/-8% you'll have a resolution of 0.125% (bigger pitch range, less accuracy)
So it's a lot worse than a CDJ.
You can get pretty good control over the pitch range in Traktor, so you could opt for a smaller range to improve your resolution, but to get a resolution of 0.02% your pitch range would have to be just +/-1.28%
This isn't a limitation of Traktor, it's a limitation of MIDI... the Kontrol S4 would give you much better resolution as it talks to Traktor using a different protocol called NHL (as far as I'm aware the Pioneer controller doesn't use NHL) |
Very good response. You know your stuff. |
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| orTofønChiLd |
| quote: | Originally posted by feelgood
Very good response. You know your stuff. |
yeah stu cox does know his stuff |
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| n3lly |
| quote: | Originally posted by orTofønChiLd
yeah stu cox does know his stuff |
meh.. average advice from him at best :p |
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