Originally posted by -FSP-
I usually start out with a sampled kick that will be replaced later on, but at the same time, almost has the timbre i'm looking for. Later on in the song, I tend to layer my kicks. I usually have 2-3 different kicks that are layered. I might pitch them individually also, but you should listen for phase cancellation.
Don't be afraid to experiment. Layering closed hats, toms, and snares might help do the trick.
Can't you visually do that too in Ableton by selecting where the sample starts on the waveform?
Evolve140
quote:
Originally posted by derail
Your kick should sound pretty decent just dropped into the mix. If you're doing heavy EQ, using bass enhancers or other treatment to get your kick sounding decent, it's definitely the wrong kick relative to the other sounds.
If none of the Vengeance or Wave Alchemy kicks are close, then I'd look at the other sounds in the song, particularly the bass and the low frequencies of the other instruments. Those sample packs cover a wide range of sounds and are used either straight up or very close to straight up in a lot of great sounding songs.
Maybe try recreating a song you think sounds excellent, where the kick is playing relatively by itself in the intro (maybe with some other percussive elements). Match the kick so it's sounding very similar, then try matching the bass when it comes in. I learn something new every time I do this.
It can be extremely disgruntling to have a kick not fit. For me, over time I just had to start imagining the subs in my head. In the club, the subs are all over the place, just like in the car. So for me, after referencing for so long I finally feel a little better about working with kicks and subs. As much as it is the kick that we seem to worry about, it is also, aspect wise, always possible that other elements of the mix are inhibiting the kick from showing its true self, and our intention of making sure things fit together in an aesthetic creative and technical amalgamation.
All elements of the mix interact, it's just a matter of how they will interact. If your bassline is tight and with little decay, a kick with a longer decay would work. If you have a rolling bassline, or something with a lot of release on the bassline perhaps a kick with a shorter decay would work. Always think of it in terms of frequency occupation, groove, the harmonics you will be dealing with when and while deciding which frequencies to keep, and which areas to keep fattened up for warmth, but ultimately use your gut.
On layering kicks, there's a few threads on here I think. :)
Richard Butler
quote:
Originally posted by evo8
Which Wave Alchemy pack have you got???
I usually just drop those bad boys in, shorten the decay, sometimes soften the attack but thats generally all they need
I've got WA minimal Tech and the most recent minimal pack too.
Thing is I've said what I'm about to say before, but last time people did'nt get what I mean;
> Listening close to some good recent pro releases, the kicks are MUCH better and very different sounding to any WA kicks.
As to layering and tweaking - I'm an obsessive and do this endlesly - for hours per session.
Richard Butler
quote:
Originally posted by Lolo
, so is stylus, best is a combo of both.
Good reminder - I'd forgotton about Stylus - I'll check the site in a mo.
Metrum is probaly a no for me, as I've just read on KVR that a dongle is needed.
Mate thanks for that, I don;t want to come accross mean spirit, but those are basic kick sounds and nothing like the kicks I'm hearing in certain pro tracks.
Listen VERY carefuly to this and how it sits in the mix. I know it matters about nthe other sounds around the kick, but thats not the point here. The kick itself is awesome. Usualy this is the point where someone will say 'thats just any old kick'. But he's wrong - and if he doesn'nt realise this then he is'nt using his ears.
This is NOT like any WA kick - I've A/B'd the lot.
G-Con
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Butler
Mate thanks for that, I don;t want to come accross mean spirit, but those are basic kick sounds and nothing like the kicks I'm hearing in certain pro tracks.
Listen VERY carefuly to this and how it sits in the mix. I know it matters about nthe other sounds around the kick, but thats not the point here. The kick itself is awesome. Usualy this is the point where someone will say 'thats just any old kick'. But he's wrong - and if he doesn'nt realise this then he is'nt using his ears.
This is NOT like any WA kick - I've A/B'd the lot.
My personal approach is to choose one kick from a sample pack. I will apply very little processing to it. On it's own it might sound dull/flat/lifeless. But when played with the right bass line, it sounds perfect.
Trick of course is to get the right kick and bass combo.
If I start analysing kicks on their own, I'll be there all day auditioning different kick samples, never satisfied with what I'm hearing.
I know many people, like you, have the opinion that kicks from sample packs on their own aren't good enough when compared to pro tracks. Maybe you are right, I've never spent that much time comparing.
However, I do see a big flaw in this opinion. Good sample packs are made by professional producers using high end equipment. Their aim is to make pro kick samples that are of a professional standard and can be used in professional productions. This is how they make a product they can charge good money for. Are you suggesting that even now, nobody has managed to make a sample pack of kicks of a high enough standard? If so, what magic tools are pro producers using to get quality sounding kicks in their tracks? Must be something pretty special as apparently, no sample-pack producers have figured it out yet...
Whoever finally does decide to make a sample pack of a professional standard could make a lot of money....shame no one wants to make one.
MrJiveBoJingles
This is reminding me of the old days. There used to be a ton of threads about kicks in this forum.
Now we have a ton about mastering. :p
Richard Butler
quote:
Originally posted by G-Con
I know many people, like you, have the opinion that kicks from sample packs on their own aren't good enough when compared to pro tracks. Maybe you are right, I've never spent that much time comparing.
However, I do see a big flaw in this opinion. Good sample packs are made by professional producers using high end equipment. Their aim is to make pro kick samples that are of a professional standard and can be used in professional productions. This is how they make a product they can charge good money for. Are you suggesting that even now, nobody has managed to make a sample pack of kicks of a high enough standard? If so, what magic tools are pro producers using to get quality sounding kicks in their tracks? Must be something pretty special as apparently, no sample-pack producers have figured it out yet...
Whoever finally does decide to make a sample pack of a professional standard could make a lot of money....shame no one wants to make one.
I used to think the same as you, but the more I listen the more I hear a considerable difference between certain producers kicks and the rest.
It could be they are using a drum machine and or thier own particular chain of processors they have spent a long time in putting together.
I can take a basic sine, and add an attatck component, pitch etc, but when it comes to my EQ tools, I can never get them to sound the way certain pro kicks sound.
It's likely to be that I have not yet discovered the right sound sources, right EQ tools and right dynamics tools.
I hear what you say about being surprised no sample provider getting it right, but I did not say no provider has got it right, I said those that I have tried.
I do have an instinct though that sounds are producer lead, and followed by sample pack creators, and not in general the other way around.
Anyway, I've found another PACK, arghhhhhh, this time called Plasticlicks from D16 group (I have thier Toraverb which is great).
I might try that as I cant find an up to date kick creator without dongle.
cryophonik
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Butler
Listen VERY carefuly to this and how it sits in the mix. I know it matters about nthe other sounds around the kick, but thats not the point here. The kick itself is awesome. Usualy this is the point where someone will say 'thats just any old kick'. But he's wrong - and if he doesn'nt realise this then he is'nt using his ears.
Apparently I'm not using my ears, then. No offense, but that kick sounds pretty much run-of-the-mill to me. Not that that's a bad thing, mind you. I think that far too many people obsess over their kick to the point that they lose focus on what really matters to the listener (i.e., solid songwriting and a good overall mix). I'm not implying that you do that, Richard, but I see it happen far too often - producers and commenters obsessing over the kick drum in a song that has very little to offer musically.
As far as that song goes, I'd suggest that the reason it sounds good is a result of the overall mix and the fact that the kick doesn't take up too much of it. In other words, it's not buried to the point where it has no character, but it's also not so huge as to attract attention to itself and exposing any flaws in its character or how well this particular kick works in the mix. Just my 2c.
Beatflux
quote:
Originally posted by DJ Robby Rox
I stopped "making" kicks a long time ago. I tried endless layering of sinewaves to hipassed vengeance kicks, vengeance kicks alone with outrageous fx processing, layering and making my own sub enhance patches for them. Using a tiny bit of overdrive/tube distortion. And after all of that, my kicks still sounded like .
Because I feel its so important to have a solid kick, and can do my basslines fairly well now. I've converted to 100% stealing other peoples kicks. And it never fails me now. I'm not sure if its the hi end processing they're doing, or maybe they just have better samples. But I must have stole at least 10 kicks alone from kandi, a couple from tyas, some more from other random producers, and have no moral reservations in doing so. Just that their kicks are always snappier, punchier, deeper, and always seem to sound 100 times better than any kick I've ever used in vengeance orr alchemy. I really don't give a , its just a kick. I do the rest of the sounds myself and its just what works for me now.
This is what Laidback Luke does for the same reason you mentioned, takes no time at all...
I remember Super8 and Tab just dropped a vengenance kick straight into "black is the new yellow."
A true A/B isn't comparing your kick in isolation versus their kick in the mix.
If you want a deep sounding kick, make sure to have the kick peak at 50-55 Hz in the analyzer.
Beatflux
quote:
Originally posted by cryophonik
Apparently I'm not using my ears, then. No offense, but that kick sounds pretty much run-of-the-mill to me. Not that that's a bad thing, mind you. I think that far too many people obsess over their kick to the point that they lose focus on what really matters to the listener (i.e., solid songwriting and a good overall mix). I'm not implying that you do that, Richard, but I see it happen far too often - producers and commenters obsessing over the kick drum in a song that has very little to offer musically.
As far as that song goes, I'd suggest that the reason it sounds good is a result of the overall mix and the fact that the kick doesn't take up too much of it. In other words, it's not buried to the point where it has no character, but it's also not so huge as to attract attention to itself and exposing any flaws in its character or how well this particular kick works in the mix. Just my 2c.
You're probably right! Nice post.
Raphie
Don't forget excellent mixing and eventually mastering.
It's not only the source, it's also the processing.
