Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
take a listen to any Wagner overture and then listen to hans. That is why there is this polarization from the people that say he is a genius , and those that say he sucks. He is very good at what he does which unfortunately seems to be lost on both parties. Genius is a little heavy handed.
And if you are interested in that sort of music, why not learn from the guys that invented it. The scores are available for free online. You will learn more from that that a stem which tells you very little. Each individual stem has about 100 tracks summed and you probably hear 2 elements.
Well I'm actually more interested in the stems from a mix/production stand point. It is his whole production that I find ingenious, rather than the notes alone. It's interesting because you hear so many imitations of his musical style that can't come close to matching his production and the end result is horrible. But these days I would argue that production is in fact part of composition. But that's a whole different story :)
Looney4Clooney
ok, then i am in agreement. most people don't include that as part of the composition but i would. But like i said, there is so much going on , too much that you just don't hear it. I think the trick is to narrow in on the actual individuals of his team as they actually talk alot more than they used to about how they do things. You have guys who work on 1 thing for a year. Like imagine your job was to get say that joker theme distorted cello in the dark night, and you worked 15 hours a day for a year on just that. That is why his scores are interesting. Alot goes into them. The sound effect team is also something to look at. Those guys tend to talk much more about how they do things because they all tend to be really old in a job that weeds out the type of egos composition might attract.
There are many parallels between EDM production and how they go about their palette. But where as one might layer 2 kicks, you get people that spend months creating a sound bounced from 60 sources. The actual cataloging is a nightmareish job.
J.L.
I actually still have the stems but it's half a gig and I can't be arsed to do it tonight since it'll take like 3 hours on my connection.
Maybe I'll do it tomorrow. If you give me a kiss.
J.L.
But sure his melodies aren't complicated and when you break it down it is quite simple.
But that's the beauty of the work Hans Zimmer does. I prefer it over John Williams or Howard Shore. I personally don't like the Pirates of the Caribbean soundtrack, but I think some of the dark knight stuff is just gold.
You don't have to like him, but I think calling some of the stuff "garbage" is a bit too much and I do think the man deserves some respect and we could all learn from him. Even Looney4Clooney.
For example:
Looney4Clooney
production wise, sure. Scoring sure, his ability to get results, definitely, composition from a melodic harmonic and form criteria, there is nothing really going on that is interesting in any way which is why i don't really study his work in terms of composition, But scoring isn't about making interesting music. And i didn't call him garbage. I tried to give a bit of perspective. I like him. But for the things he is good at.
When ever you hear him do things that have some interesting compositional devices, you always have him teamed with someone that does that part better. Kung Fu Panda 2 was brilliant but it is obviously Powell doing that part. And in the dark night, the cues that were more traditional and less production based were mostly done by Howard.
But that is what i like about him. He doesn't try to do what he knows he can't do. I think he learned his lesson with the SImpsons. He doesn't care. I think his decade dominance over the industry has pissed off every person that would vote for an award, so he just tries to make a good product regardless of the help he has to hire. I don't think that is a bad thing. Better that than do something you know someone can do better.
avacoddo
quote:
Originally posted by J.L.
I actually still have the stems but it's half a gig and I can't be arsed to do it tonight since it'll take like 3 hours on my connection.
Maybe I'll do it tomorrow. If you give me a kiss.
J.L. I would do anything! :happy2: but seriously I'd be extremely grateful.
Clooney: You are absolutely right. RC productions is like an architecture firm for music. They have tons of additional composers and programmers. Not sure why but Hans seems to only credit Lorne Balfe for additional music. I know Clay Duncan has been the brilliant mind behind a lot of the sound design elements. Alan myerson is his mixer but takes part in production as well, as he often creates sounds and such for HZ. The list goes on and on, but the fact is, HZ would not have the time to handle all of this under the tight time constraints even if he wanted to. He is certainly a genius business man if anything else. I think this firm like structure may be the future of film composing.
He credits everyone. Production is not considered composition. Neither is orchestration. That is a union thing. And this method of scoring using a team was how it was in the golden era of film. Nothing new about it at all. In fact they made more movies with much more intricate scores in less time. I'm talking days.
avacoddo
quote:
Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
He credits everyone. Production is not considered composition. Neither is orchestration. That is a union thing. And this method of scoring using a team was how it was in the golden era of film. Nothing new about it at all. In fact they made more movies with much more intricate scores in less time. I'm talking days.
I won't disagree about the credit since I don't really know, but from what I've heard (take with a grain of salt), he is hesitant to give out additional music credits when they are due. Either way, there is definitely a blur when it comes to who actually did what on these film scores whether it's intentional or not.
Production is not composition: I thought you just agreed that it was? In my opinion, production can make or break the emotional delivery of a piece of music. What is more important that that??
Obviously the two of these invoke a different emotional response, even though the notes are the same.
Orchestration is not composition: That is just ridiculous. If you are composing for an orchestra you are orchestrating. They are one in the same. If you are composing for samples you don't have the same set of rules but there's no doubt that your choices will effect the overall emotional value of the piece. And it will certainly effect the mix which contributes to the overall production. All interlinked to create one final product. That final product is the composition.
I know scoring as a team is nothing new, but to the scale of Remote Control? You would know better than I.
Looney4Clooney
I disagree, he was has helped start more careers than anyone. Did you have a particular film in mind? Regarding what I deemed composition, that is merely how the industry distinguishes the role you do and what you get credit for. Orchestrators don't get credit for composing. Nor do people doing producction/sound related work.That is just how it works. I never claimed that it wasn't composition.
Actually the assembly line aspect of film making was much larger involving more people than RC. Each studio had their own composers, orchestrators, studios, engineers, conductors, orchestras... They dwarfed companies like RC in terms of manpower. Things are much smaller now.
In terms of what an orchestrator does, it depends on the composer. Many composers don't write for orchestra. They hand you a midi project with a keyboard take. Many composers could not handle the transposition of common instruments like the horn let alone score for them. Some can and do, some can and don't, some can''t. Things have sort of changed with sample libraries but still, how a real orchestra works, from the balancing of parts to the intonation down to the score proofing is very different from those libraries. They really don't translate.
Scoring is less about music and more about film making. A great composer can be ty at scoring. They are different skills.
avacoddo
quote:
Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
I disagree, he was has helped start more careers than anyone. Did you have a particular film in mind? Regarding what I deemed composition, that is merely how the industry distinguishes the role you do and what you get credit for. Orchestrators don't get credit for composing. Nor do people doing producction/sound related work.That is just how it works. I never claimed that it wasn't composition.
Actually the assembly line aspect of film making was much larger involving more people than RC. Each studio had their own composers, orchestrators, studios, engineers, conductors, orchestras... They dwarfed companies like RC in terms of manpower. Things are much smaller now.
In terms of what an orchestrator does, it depends on the composer. Many composers don't write for orchestra. They hand you a midi project with a keyboard take. Many composers could not handle the transposition of common instruments like the horn let alone score for them. Some can and do, some can and don't, some can''t. Things have sort of changed with sample libraries but still, how a real orchestra works, from the balancing of parts to the intonation down to the score proofing is very different from those libraries. They really don't translate.
Scoring is less about music and more about film making. A great composer can be ty at scoring. They are different skills.
I see, I misunderstood you mate. Definitely agree with you about the industries view of each role. I was speaking more from my perspective. An example not relating to HZ is the tron score. Daft punk gets the composer credit, Joe Trapanese gets and orchestrator/arranger credit. I would say both of them played an equal role in the end result but I guess that's just how it goes in this biz.
Looney4Clooney
you know who didn't get a credit oddly enough. HZ. Orchestrators tend to do a lot of writing but in a way it isn't composition. You have a theme, you are asked to make it last 2 minutes, and go thru these key regions and end up here at this temp. It is just a union thing and unlike the recording industry which is less formal than it used to be, unions still run the show. There was a time when a producer could not be behind the mixing desk. I mean it was a really big ing deal. They had all sorts of rules. Like at abbey roads, instrumental groups were charged less than non instrumental with vocals. And people would lie , and when unions found out, they would go ape .
Even in hollywood, there are so many rules that the guy who takes care of the hiring and budgeting has a hectic job. I mean there are rules for everything. If you have a part for a piccolo but assume that the first flautist will play it as is usually done for orchestras, well you pay him double. Even overdubbing is controlled. You can't overdub to say simulate a bigger orchestra without actually paying extra.
Looney4Clooney
quote:
Originally posted by tehlord
My favourite relatively contemporary score is Interview With A Vampire
You'll disagree but I don't care because you're a big, fat liar.
Goldenthal is probably the best guy in the business. In terms of range and pure talent, the guy is a monster, But because he is so good, he seems to do less because when you are that good, it is hard to write for hollywood. You need to write at a very basic level which is hard to do. THe most successful guys right now tend to be mediocre, quick and dependable.
