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Man With No Name Essential Mix from 1998 (pg. 4)
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sand Leaper
Is there really any guarantee that they're gonna play "proper oldschool ", though? Tilt live, for instance, could easily mean that they will play mainly their post-2000 stuff after Quivver left (they released their first album then, after all). I doubt that they will be instructed to play the old stuff by the promoters...
I also have my doubts towards how much a draw MWNN really will be outside of the goa/psy trance crowd. He hasn't released anything since 2003, and it's been even longer than that since Oakenphant consistently pushed any of his stuff to the more mainstream crowd. |
It's pretty obvious they're going to play a retro set, given it's a retro night. Did Lieb play his post-millenial techno last time out? Did Seb Fontaine play an up-front set? Of course not. The members of Tilt played at Cream back in the glory years, they know what this night is all about. And since it's a Reunion night with an over-25 age policy, it's not in any way marketed towards a "mainstream crowd". The people who will go will predominantly be the people who went in the '90s, and they will know who MWNN is. By all accounts the last two nights were extremely successful, and the early bird tickets for this night sold out within two days.
You're usually one of the most informed and sensible posters on TA, but everything about this post is so ludicrously wide of the mark that it simply strikes me as over-straining cynicism. This night is going to kill it. |
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| Sand Leaper |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
It's pretty obvious they're going to play a retro set, given it's a retro night. Did Lieb play his post-millenial techno last time out? Did Seb Fontaine play an up-front set? Of course not. The members of Tilt played at Cream back in the glory years, they know what this night is all about. And since it's a Reunion night with an over-25 age policy, it's not in any way marketed towards a "mainstream crowd". The people who will go will predominantly be the people who went in the '90s, and they will know who MWNN is. By all accounts the last two nights were extremely successful, and the early bird tickets for this night sold out within two days.
You're usually one of the most informed and sensible posters on TA, but everything about this post is so ludicrously wide of the mark that it simply strikes me as over-straining cynicism. This night is going to kill it. |
Oh, come on now. How on earth was Cream not a mainstream-oriented superclub? Are you really THAT giddy about seeing your favourite trance acts together on one bill that this fact totally eludes you?
I think you're vastly overestimating both MWNN's popularity with the crowd that goes/went to Cream AND artists' urge to promote themselves and their new material at any given opportunity. However, if the last two Reunion-nights were extremely successful and as oldschool-oriented across the board as you claim they were, I'll admit that those are both moot points. Clearly, the brand name Cream and the nostalgia it carries is strong enough in itself to draw a strong crowd, and that was really why I brought it up in the first place. |
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| Redd |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lunar Phase 7
Christ, commitment! How many notes that gonna set you back? As well as writing off a whole weekend too? |
A weekend isn't much of a sacrifice to catch MWNN live. Not that expensive, I think the flight will cost like £120, and I got friends to stay with in Liverpool so no expenses there.
Alfi; Finner ikke noen billig flight direkte fra Bergen til Liverpool. De fleste går enten fra Torp (Ryanair), eller Gardermoen. Jeg gidder ikke reise via der :) |
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| BeatsAndBeyond |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
...and since it's a Reunion night with an over-25 age policy, it's not in any way marketed towards a "mainstream crowd"... |
Where does it say over 25 age policy? I'm one year behind. Skiddle says minimum age: 18. |
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| Woonyxoxo |
| quote: | Originally posted by BeatsAndBeyond
Where does it say over 25 age policy? I'm one year behind. Skiddle says minimum age: 18. |
It's obviously not officially 25+ but I guess the bouncers will try to keep the crowd 25+? I mean, it's like that in a lot of clubs, the official age to enter is 18/21 but if you don't look like youre at least in your mid twenties youre gonna have troubles getting in. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sand Leaper
Oh, come on now. How on earth was Cream not a mainstream-oriented superclub? Are you really THAT giddy about seeing your favourite trance acts together on one bill that this fact totally eludes you? |
The fact hasn't eluded me, it's just irrelevant to your actual point. I mean, what are you trying to claim here? Progressive trance was mainstream in 1997, and thus a Cream Reunion night in 2011 is going to be aimed at a 2011 mainstream crowd? If you're trying to claim MWNN wasn't mainstream even in 1997, and thus has no draw to the Cream crowd, then why on Earth are you banging on about what he's done in the last eight years?
It's not even as though MWNN is the headliner. He's third on the bill, for Christ's sake. Tilt are top, and given they had Top 20 chart hits and a slew of classic releases I think they have plenty of draw, both with the Cream faithful and with older trance fans in general.
As for the acts not playing "old school " and just self-promoting... Mick Park is back by popular demand after playing the first Reunion, so clearly the nostalgia crowd enjoyed what he played, and given he's B2B with Quivver I doubt John Graham will be sneaking in any of his current 128bpm tech-prog amidst the '90s bangers. The Tilt live act is described as "a one off performance" which suggests it's being put together just for the event... do you really think they'd do that to push a bunch of 5+ year old McProg made with Andy Moor, who isn't even going to be playing with them?
More than that, I've been to plenty of retro nights: acid house nights, hardcore nights, techno nights, trance nights, big beat nights. I've never heard an act or DJ at any of these nights push new material. These people aren't idiots - they know that 30-somethings aren't going to buy it, and they're not going to get booked again if they pull that kind of stunt. And as if all that weren't enough, I've spoken to Sam, the promoter, in person and I know for a fact he won't book certain DJs exactly because they won't provide classics sets.
Put bluntly, your argument is .
| quote: | Originally posted by BeatsAndBeyond
Where does it say over 25 age policy? I'm one year behind. Skiddle says minimum age: 18. |
I know previous events had the 25+ door restriction, but Sam told me it's entirely to keep the less savoury side of Liverpool's clubbing public out and to ensure a good vibe and they aren't going to be checking ID rigorously. I'm only 23, but he's assured me I'll get in.
| quote: | Originally posted by Woonyxoxo
It's obviously not officially 25+ but I guess the bouncers will try to keep the crowd 25+? I mean, it's like that in a lot of clubs, the official age to enter is 18/21 but if you don't look like youre at least in your mid twenties youre gonna have troubles getting in. |
I have never, ever seen someone of legal age denied access to a club because they didn't look like they were in their mid-20s. I know the clubs in Germany have a rep for being snobby, but in the UK if you prove your age you get in. |
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| Sand Leaper |
This debate really is moot in regards to whether there will be a good crowd or not at this event, as I mentioned earlier. But what the hell, I'll indulge you.
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
The fact hasn't eluded me, it's just irrelevant to your actual point. I mean, what are you trying to claim here? Progressive trance was mainstream in 1997, and thus a Cream Reunion night in 2011 is going to be aimed at a 2011 mainstream crowd?
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The point is that Cream was/is a superclub juggernaut where the music itself wasn't the focus. People went to Cream because it had a recognizable brand name. It had all the biggest superstar DJs, sold the VIP-packages, had TV and radio ads, sold compilations with Cream in big letters stamped on them etc. etc. Do you really think a goa/psy trance act like MWNN, who at best had one big tune, is going to be a familiar enough name for these people to draw? Especially in 2011, when the guy hasn't even been properly active within his niche genre for several years, let alone had any records out that were played across the board?
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It's not even as though MWNN is the headliner. He's third on the bill, for Christ's sake. Tilt are top, and given they had Top 20 chart hits and a slew of classic releases I think they have plenty of draw, both with the Cream faithful and with older trance fans in general.
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I never questioned that.
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As for the acts not playing "old school " and just self-promoting... Mick Park is back by popular demand after playing the first Reunion, so clearly the nostalgia crowd enjoyed what he played, and given he's B2B with Quivver I doubt John Graham will be sneaking in any of his current 128bpm tech-prog amidst the '90s bangers. The Tilt live act is described as "a one off performance" which suggests it's being put together just for the event... do you really think they'd do that to push a bunch of 5+ year old McProg made with Andy Moor, who isn't even going to be playing with them?
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Who says that Park and Graham have the same negative view of the new Tilt-material as you? If it's a one-off performance, why would they NOT include their new material? Tilt just released a brand new single with Maria Nayler on Lost Language, and it seems totally plausible to me that they'll do a 30 minute PA or so, where the only "oldschool " will be capping the PA off with Invisible. Why? Because they have a large back catalogue to show off at this point. Did I miss them actually going out denouncing their newer releases, or are you basing this argument purely on your own opinion of their music?
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More than that, I've been to plenty of retro nights: acid house nights, hardcore nights, techno nights, trance nights. I've never heard an act or DJ at any of these nights push new material. These people aren't idiots - they know that 30-somethings aren't going to buy it, and they're not going to get booked again if they pull that kind of stunt. And as if all that weren't enough, I've spoken to Sam, the promoter, in person and I know for a fact he won't book certain DJs exactly because they won't provide classics sets.
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I guess we have differing experiences there, then. I've experienced several occasions where the supposed "retro" theme went completely out the window, either because the DJ didn't get the memo, or because the DJ didn't care. An example that immediately stands out is Photek, who was comissioned for an oldschool jungle special on BBC Radio 1 a couple of years back. He delivered 30 minutes of awful, lazily thrown together upcoming drum n bass from his label or his mates.
But anyway, I'm glad to hear that the promoter for this night is fully aware of the problem, and booking DJs/artists accordingly to avoid it.
| quote: |
Put bluntly, your argument is . |
Settle down. I'm sure you'll have a great time. |
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| BeatsAndBeyond |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I know previous events had the 25+ door restriction, but Sam told me it's entirely to keep the less savoury side of Liverpool's clubbing public out and to ensure a good vibe and they aren't going to be checking ID rigorously. I'm only 23, but he's assured me I'll get in.
I have never, ever seen someone of legal age denied access to a club because they didn't look like they were in their mid-20s. I know the clubs in Germany have a rep for being snobby, but in the UK if you prove your age you get in. |
Yeah, I've never had any problems anywhere else. I always carry ID because I look younger than I actually am and get asked to prove my age quite often.
But I'm not sure if I want to make the effort to drive all the way to Liverpool (plus pay for a hotel etc.) if there's a chance I'll just be turned away at the door due to some crazy age policy / bouncer power trip. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sand Leaper
The point is that Cream was/is a superclub juggernaut where the music itself wasn't the focus. People went to Cream because it had a recognizable brand name. It had all the biggest superstar DJs, sold the VIP-packages, had TV and radio ads, sold compilations with Cream in big letters stamped on them etc. etc. Do you really think a goa/psy trance act like MWNN, who at best had one big tune, is going to be a familiar enough name for these people to draw? Especially in 2011, when the guy hasn't even been properly active within his niche genre for several years, let alone had any records out that were played across the board? |
Like any superclub, Cream had its share of tourists. However, those people are not going to attend a reunion night. From everything I've seen and heard, there are hundreds if not thousands of people who attended Cream and genuinely loved the music. That's why the night exists and keeps doing so well. And while the name Cream became a brand, there was a well-defined Cream sound that has been amply represented by the line-ups of the events.
By the way, which big MWNN tune are we talking about? Sugar Rush? Floor Essence? Teleport? Oakenfold, legendary Cream resident, hammered all of them for about four years straight, based on the tracklists I've seen.
| quote: | | Who says that Park and Graham have the same negative view of the new Tilt-material as you? If it's a one-off performance, why would they NOT include their new material? |
Because it's a one-off performance for the Cream Reunion and the blurb says: "Expect one or two surprises and appearances as the band recreate the magic of former TILT classics that became synonymous with Perfecto, Cream and the Courtyard." I wouldn't even object to hearing, say, Twelve played live in a club, but why on Earth would they choose to dedicate their one-off performance to plugging the Andy Moor era material in light of all of this? Most of the old Tilt stuff is still available to buy online, and again a bunch of 30+ Cream fanatics are not going to suddenly go out and download 2,000 copies of The World Doesn't Know because of a one-off live PA. It's only plausible that an act would use live performances to pimp their own material/label/friends if they tour their live show consistently to a wide demographic. Again, this strikes me as nothing more than your urge to appear cynical and guarded over-riding any clear reasoning. |
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| Sand Leaper |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Like any superclub, Cream had its share of tourists. However, those people are not going to attend a reunion night. From everything I've seen and heard, there are hundreds if not thousands of people who attended Cream and genuinely loved the music. That's why the night exists and keeps doing so well. And while the name Cream became a brand, there was a well-defined Cream sound that has been amply represented by the line-ups of the events.
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I didn't say anything about not genuinely loving the music. I'm sure they loved the music. What I said was that people going to a big brand name club like Cream most likely weren't the kind of people who'd be big enough trainspotters to recognize a psy/goa act that Oakenfold supported about 10 years later. They would have been too caught up with the other aspects the brand was offering at the time for that.
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By the way, which big MWNN tune are we talking about? Sugar Rush? Floor Essence? Teleport? Oakenfold, legendary Cream resident, hammered all of them for about four years straight, based on the tracklists I've seen.
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Teleport, based mainly on the times it has been re-released and how many trance TLs I've seen it on compared to the other Fluoro-singles.
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Because it's a one-off performance for the Cream Reunion and the blurb says: "Expect one or two surprises and appearances as the band recreate the magic of former TILT classics that became synonymous with Perfecto, Cream and the Courtyard." I wouldn't even object to hearing, say, Twelve played live in a club, but why on Earth would they choose to dedicate their one-off performance to plugging the Andy Moor era material in light of all of this? Most of the old Tilt stuff is still available to buy online, and again a bunch of 30+ Cream fanatics are not going to suddenly go out and download 2,000 copies of The World Doesn't Know because of a one-off live PA. It's only plausible that an act would use live performances to pimp their own material/label/friends if they tour their live show consistently to a wide demographic. |
Why not? How can you be so sure that these supposed "Cream fanatics" automatically will write off their newer material? Are you basing this simply on the fact that they are/once were in love with Tilt's older sound like yourself, and then couldn't possibly like the newer stuff?
Clearly, this one-off performance is a momentous occasion, going by the hype you've displayed here. Given that they have a brand new single out, a large back catalogue to choose from and a crowd that is there to see them in particular (supposedly), surely it isn't all that far-fetched that they'll want to blend both new, old-ish and old material into one cohesive live experience? Surely it would've been a tremendously wasted opportunity to get these people back into the loop on what they are currently about if not?
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Again, this strikes me as nothing more than your urge to appear cynical and guarded over-riding any clear reasoning. |
And your arguments reek of prog trance fanboyism of the highest order, from someone who's pining for an opportunity to hear his old favourites so bad that he can't see this performance in an objective context for the year 2011. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sand Leaper
What I said was that people going to a big brand name club like Cream most likely weren't the kind of people who'd be big enough trainspotters to recognize a psy/goa act that Oakenfold supported about 10 years later. |
The multitude of posts I've seen on Facebook thus far would suggest you're talking out of your arse.
| quote: | | Clearly, this one-off performance is a momentous occasion, going by the hype you've displayed here. Given that they have a brand new single out, a large back catalogue to choose from and a crowd that is there to see them in particular (supposedly), surely it isn't all that far-fetched that they'll want to blend both new, old-ish and old material into one cohesive live experience? Surely it would've been a tremendously wasted opportunity to get these people back into the loop on what they are currently about if not? |
Well first of all, how about you decide exactly what your argument is? Are you arguing that are Tilt going to play predominantly post-2000 material and end with Invisible in an exercise in self-promotion, and thus enydo's dream of hearing "old school " will be quashed by money-grabbing self-aggrandisement? Or are you arguing that Tilt will play a smooth mixture of classic and newer material in the name of a cohesive live PA? You seem to have started with one fairly radical position and neatly eroded it to the point where it seems that Tilt playing any post-2000 material at all will prove you right.
And it's not about whether the crowd would write off the material. It's about the material having absolutely no relevance to Cream in the first place, and no relevance to what the event is about. It's a retro night. It is not about hearing unfamiliar tracks, and therefore it is not a platform for plugging material. And I think you need to stop strawmanning me so badly. The only Tilt tracks I could say I love would be the various mixes of I Dream, their update of Children and possibly My Spirit. I'd rather hear newer stuff like Twelve or Tokyo Breaks than classics like Invisible or that PVD collab they did (Rendezvous?), that I never got on board with. That, however, is immaterial to my argument. |
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| Sand Leaper |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
The multitude of posts I've seen on Facebook thus far would suggest you're talking out of your arse.
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I'm glad that you've found some exceptions to what, in my experience, is a norm for big brand superclubbing.
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Well first of all, how about you decide exactly what your argument is? Are you arguing that are Tilt going to play predominantly post-2000 material and end with Invisible in an exercise in self-promotion, and thus enydo's dream of hearing "old school " will be quashed by money-grabbing self-aggrandisement? Or are you arguing that Tilt will play a smooth mixture of classic and newer material in the name of a cohesive live PA? You seem to have started with one fairly radical position and neatly eroded it to the point where it seems that Tilt playing any post-2000 material at all will prove you right. |
My argument has been the same all along. I'm arguing against your supposition that this PA will necessarily be a PA devoted to Tilt's records from the mid/late 90s, as there clearly is plenty of motive for Tilt to showcase their newer releases. Because of this, the PA might not be exactly the trip back to prog trance heaven that you and enydo are hoping for.
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And it's not about whether the crowd would write off the material. It's about the material having absolutely no relevance to Cream in the first place, and no relevance to what the event is about. It's a retro night. It is not about hearing unfamiliar tracks, and therefore it is not a platform for plugging material.
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OK then. I hope that the guys in Tilt feel the same way as you do about this, and that you have a good time.
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And I think you need to stop strawmanning me so badly. The only Tilt tracks I could say I love would be the various mixes of I Dream, their update of Children and possibly My Spirit. I'd rather hear newer stuff like Twelve or Tokyo Breaks than classics like Invisible or that PVD collab they did (Rendezvous?), that I never got on board with. |
That wasn't the reason I said your arguments reek of fanboyism. I said that because you assume that the people at the event will have the same sentiment towards Tilt's "McProg"-material as yourself, as evidenced by your complete dismissal of the idea that marketing their new material to this audience through the PA would increase their sales.
It's fair enough that you're sold on the hype, mystique and nostalgia factor Cream has used to market this event, but don't let it go to your head. People as passionate and discerning about '97 Sasha & Digweed-sets as yourself are clearly in the minority among clubbers. |
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