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Can any DAW do this ? Send levels that adjust to chain dynamics
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| Looney4Clooney |
I've always wondered if there is a way other than using a compressor or automation to have the send summation from different channels adjust to the original channels level even when that original channel is being sent to 1 or 2 sub channels with dynamic processing.
in particular with reverb but I suppose it could be any effect. |
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| BritishLizard |
| I don't think that can be done, but I have never tried it that way though. I just create an AUX and bus whatever channel/channels I want to effect but I'm sure you know how to do that already. Can you give an instance that you would use the way that you are inquiring about? |
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| cryophonik |
If I understand the question correctly, you are using, for example, 3 vocal tracks that are bussed and compressed together. Each of the tracks has a send to a reverb. You want the send level to the reverb adjust in tandem with the compressor as it reduces the gain of the bussed vocal tracks so that the reverb's level is being reduced whenever the compressor reduces the gain of the vocal tracks, right?
If that's right and your DAW has this feature, you could try sending the signal to the reverb from the buss post-fader. You'd lose the ability to adjust the send levels for each track individually, but the send signal *should* be sent in response to the compressed signal (at least I think it would, but I've never tried and I'm not sure that it's even an option to select pre/post fader for buss sends on most DAWs). |
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| Looney4Clooney |
ok say you have 10 channels
A B C have reverb and are sent to a group with a compressor BUS 1
D E F have reverb and are also sent to a bus with compression BUS 2
G H I ditto. BUS 3
Now BUS 2 and 3 are sent to Bus 4 again with a a little compression.
And then bus 1 and 4 are sent to 5 with again a little compression.
Now as more elements are playing, the wet/dry ratio is no longer the same as the compression , even if it is rather small say 1-2 dB each time, the reverb will become more prominent which is why the solution you would do is put a compressor on the reverb or automation ( i prefer this way ) .
But if there was a way to keep the original dry wet ratio 's integrity. That is always something i wanted in a daw. |
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| J.L. |
Well, if I understand what you are saying, you essentially want to volume of the BUS to control the reverbs individually on A, B, and C.
In Flstudio, what I would do is
FX 1, FX 2, FX 3 each have their own individual reverb.
I route it FX 1, FX 2, and FX 3 to FX 4 only and disable it's routing to the master channel. I put the compressor on FX 4, and add a peak controller (unclicking mute). I right click on the knob that controls the send volume for each channel and I link it to the peak controller. (just make sure you unclick the mute button)
FX1: Reverb on Send 1 ---\
FX2: Reverb on Send 1 ----> FX 4: Compressor-> peak controller(controls send level)
FX3: Reverb on Send 1 ---/
You could also link it to a formula controller as well, and pretty much do whatever you want with it (but you need to brush up on those math skills too) |
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| Storyteller |
| Renoise (which I doubt you ever want to use) also supports this with the signal follower device (which you can put anywhere in your effects chain and) which allows you to automate other parameters based on the audio input it receives. Pretty nifty for easy sidechaining and way more. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
| quote: | Originally posted by J.L.
Well, if I understand what you are saying, you essentially want to volume of the BUS to control the reverbs individually on A, B, and C.
In Flstudio, what I would do is
FX 1, FX 2, FX 3 each have their own individual reverb.
I route it FX 1, FX 2, and FX 3 to FX 4 only and disable it's routing to the master channel. I put the compressor on FX 4, and add a peak controller (unclicking mute). I right click on the knob that controls the send volume for each channel and I link it to the peak controller. (just make sure you unclick the mute button)
FX1: Reverb on Send 1 ---\
FX2: Reverb on Send 1 ----> FX 4: Compressor-> peak controller(controls send level)
FX3: Reverb on Send 1 ---/
You could also link it to a formula controller as well, and pretty much do whatever you want with it (but you need to brush up on those math skills too) |
no not the volume of the bus as it won't reflect each individual source. And when you have multiple group hierarchies, it wouldn't work.
Basically, as every element gets a little quieter, I want the ratio to reflect this so that it doesn't get any wetter. Automation works fine but it would be neat if you could do this automatically. |
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| DJ RANN |
UNless I'm missing something and sorry if this sounds obviously stupid, but what you're talking about is achieved with the use of a post fader send.
pre fader sends a constant amount regardless of track volume and post fader in direct relation to level of the track. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
post fader doesn't fix the issue.
Example, you could have a send to a reverb, send that track to a group and pull the fader completely down on a group or just insert a gate on that group with a threshold that makes it silent. You will still get the reverb at that original level and original channel will show the original signal in the meter despite the dynamic processing later on making it silent.
So in the layout I gave before, everyone time a compressor is used as elements are brought together, the original element is decreased say 1 dB. And if you do enough small groups and compression, the original signal to reverb ratio is no longer the same as it once was.
When a mix is rather complicated , it makes a difference even if each group buss is applying less than 3 dB of GR. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
post fader doesn't fix the issue.
Example, you could have a send to a reverb, send that track to a group and pull the fader completely down on a group or just insert a gate on that group with a threshold that makes it silent. You will still get the reverb at that original level and original channel will show the original signal in the meter despite the dynamic processing later on making it silent.
So in the layout I gave before, everyone time a compressor is used as elements are brought together, the original element is decreased say 1 dB. And if you do enough small groups and compression, the original signal to reverb ration is no longer the same as it once was.
When a mix is rather complicated , it makes a difference even if each group buss is applying less than 3 dB of GR. |
I know what you're getting at about mixes being complicated and tiny changes can be crucial, and again maybe I'm being dense about the whole thing but a post fader send means if you pull the fader down to nothing = you get no reverb or anything else after that. The more you pull the fader down, the less the you are sending. So you just make the original track's send, and all subsequent sends, post fader. It's not backwards compatible, but wherever you pull down the fader, at least at that point (and beyond) you're pulling down the ratio of send.
What am I missing?
Unless you mean you want to be able to pull down just the group and have the original source and anything before it (like the reverb) come down as well - in that case you've only got two options:
1, don't use sends - you either have to use inserts or busses where the whole chain's final output is Affected regardless of where you make the fader change.
2, Use logic to link the group to the fader of the aux chan with the reverb, and to the original channel. That way when you pull down the group, you also pull down the aux reverb and the original channel. However, I don't know if that will up the rest of your chain and I have no way of knowing without seeing the rest of your tracks. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
i mean any dynamic change of a buss.
Once you use a send, that goes to the output. What ever happens from that source to the output does not change the original send value. I mentioned the pulling of the fader just to show that once you bus something to an aux, what happens after is independent of the original,
try it. Send to group A with reverb.
then buss that track to group B. Use a really low treshold so you get alot of GR. THe reverb doesn't change. So the ratio you changed. What ends up happening is that the more elements you have with reverb, and as you send them to group then other groups, the reverb stays the same but the original source is quieter. Now you could say well just compensate with the compression but that only accounts for the dB of the entire group, Each element is still quieter.
Automation can work but only if you have enough reverb units so that you have some degree of control over the reverb associated to the element that is being dynamically changed.
I tend to use about 8 so I can automate but it would be nice if DAW s had this option.
here is a very common set up for a hybrid type style of music
Strings bussed to A
Woodwinds
Instruments that are doubled sent to a different buss so say
doubling 1 B
doubling 2 C
now B and C are sent to D along with the other instruments.
4 horns to E
3 trumpets to F
4 trombones to G
all brass to H
Strings A and woodwinds D sent to I
Brass H and I sent to J
now that is just orchestral instruments.
the busses are done for organization but also depending on what is needed, a very gentle 1-2 dB GR for each group.
Eventually, as you work your way down , well that original dry/wet setting for each instrument has changed depending on the part of the track.
I wouldn't be so intricate in the bussing but when you have that and then percussion, drums , guitar bass and you have to side chain the actual orchestra, i mean automation doesn't really work as well.
IT sounds like a lot of processing but every step is very small. But eventually you get some changes say in TUTTI section where you definitely notice the change . |
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| Mel David |
I don't know if I really get this thread...
But if you wanted the reverb level to sync with the compressed signals, then wouldn't you just use post-fader sends from the compression busses to the reverb bus, rather than from the original channels? |
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