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Libertarians (pg. 5)
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lagrangian
I've shifted from Libertarian (college years) to Fascist (late twenties). :P
I'm still unsure where I stand with regards to the role of central banks and governments in the Economy.
:D |
Uh-huh. Claim to love free market capitalism, become a fascist. Do you even understand the basics of the words you throw around?
If you really were a fascist you should have some clue or opinion re the role of governments in an economy. en try hards :haha: |
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| enydo |
| He's gotta just be trying to troll. I'm convinced. |
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| Lira |
| A fascist angry that I close threads?! This is rich! :stongue: |
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| Joss Weatherby |
| :stongue: :stongue: :stongue: :stongue: |
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| Sushipunk |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
A fascist angry that I close threads?! This is rich! :stongue: |
:haha: |
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| Lira |
| Note to self: Change username to Mussolira. |
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| Lagrangian |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Uh-huh. Claim to love free market capitalism, become a fascist. Do you even understand the basics of the words you throw around?
If you really were a fascist you should have some clue or opinion re the role of governments in an economy. en try hards :haha: |
Lira, that's because you're a communist dictator.
PKC, That was originally my thought, I debated this in my head on Sunday night. I didn't go to bed until 4 am.
| quote: | Mussolini saw fascism as opposing socialism and left-wing ideologies: "If it is admitted that the nineteenth century has been the century of Socialism, Liberalism and Democracy, it does not follow that the twentieth must also be the century of Liberalism, Socialism and Democracy. Political doctrines pass; peoples remain. It is to be expected that this century may be that of authority, a century of the "Right," a Fascist century."[149]
Capitalism
Fascism has had mixed relations regarding capitalism. Fascists commonly have sought to eliminate the autonomy of large-scale capitalism to the state.[150] Fascists support the state having control over the economy, although they support the existence of private property.[151] When fascists have criticized capitalism, they have focused their attacks on "finance capitalism", the international nature of banks and the stock exchange, and its cosmopolitan bourgeois character.[152] Under fascism, the profit motive continues to be the primary motivation of contributors to the economy.[151] Along with support of private property and the profit motive, fascists also support the market economy.[153] Italian Fascism's position towards capitalism adjusted over time, the Italian Fascist movement in 1919 was radical and anti-capitalist, it moderated in the 1920s when it sought to consolidate power, it grew more radical again in the 1930s upon being entrenched in power and by 1940 again emphasized anti-capitalism.
Mussolini praised the historic developments of "heroic capitalism" - what Mussolini considered the first stage of capitalism, which he found had provided useful economic developments, but he claimed that capitalism had deteriorated, and criticized the contemporary stage of capitalism that he termed "supercapitalism". He argued,
I do not intend to defend capitalism or capitalists. They, like everything human, have their defects. I only say their possibilities of usefulness are not ended. Capitalism has borne the monstrous burden of the war and today still has the strength to shoulder the burdens of peace. ... It is not simply and solely an accumulation of wealth, it is an elaboration, a selection, a co-ordination of values which is the work of centuries. ... Many think, and I myself am one of them, that capitalism is scarcely at the beginning of its story.[154]
To Mussolini, the capitalism of his time had degenerated from original capitalism, which he called dynamic or heroic capitalism (1830–1870) to static capitalism (1870–1914) and then finally to decadent capitalism or supercapitalism, which began in 1914.
[155] Mussolini, in 1933 amid the Great Depression, announced that modern supercapitalism was a failed economic system that was the result of the long-term degeneration of capitalism.[156][155] Mussolini denounced supercapitalism for causing the "standardization of humankind" and for causing excessive consumption.[157] Fascists argued that supercapitalism "would ultimately decay and open the way for a Marxist revolution as labor-capital relations broke down.[158]
Mussolini claimed that supercapitalism resulted in the collapse of the capitalist system in the Great Depression.[159] Mussolini claimed that fascism would preserve those elements of capitalism that were deemed beneficial, such as private enterprise provided that it would be supervised by the state in fascist economics.[160] However Mussolini claimed that fascism explicitly rejected the typical capitalist elements of economic individualism and laissez-faire.[160] Furthermore, Italian Fascism also acknowledged socialist influences, such as revolutionary syndicalism.[161]
Mussolini claimed that in supercapitalism, "[it] is then that a capitalist enterprise, when difficulties arise, throws itself like a dead weight into the state's arms. It is then that state intervention begins and becomes more necessary. It is then that those who once ignored the state now seek it out anxiously."[162] Due to the inability of businesses to operate properly when facing economic difficulties, Mussolini claimed that this proved that state intervention into the economy was necessary to stabilize the economy.[162]
Italian Fascism presented the economic system of corporatism as the solution that would preserve private enterprise and property while allowing the state to intervene in the economy when private enterprise failed.[160]
Corporatism was promoted as reconciling the interests of capital and labour.[163] Italian capitalist industrialists had opposed the Fascist government's intervention in arbitration of labour relations, and dominant groups in finance were strongly opposed to Mussolini's decision to reevaluate the Italian Lira to be the same as the British Pound in 1926-1927.[164] Gino Olivetti, head of the Italian Confederation of Industry, remained suspicious of the possibility of government intervention in the economy to support Fascist trade unions.[165]
From 1937 to 1939, Mussolini encouraged Italians to foster an anti-bourgeois attitude by having Italians send in anti-bourgeois cartoons to be published in newspapers, and by denouncing "social games, five o'clock tea, vacations, compassion for Jews, preference for armchairs, desire for compromise, desire for money" as indulgent bourgeois practices.
[166] In 1938, Mussolini excalated a public relations campaign against the Italian bourgeoisie, accusing them of preferring private gain to national victory.[167] Mussolini ordered Fascist party members to detach themselves from bourgeois culture, including abstaining from going to nightclubs, drinking coffee, wearing formal evening dress and starching their collars, which were all considered bourgeois traits.[167] That year, Mussolini's anti-bourgeois theme spoke of removing first-class compartments, dining cars, and sleepers on railroads, and possibly closing the stock exchange.[167] Also in that year, Mussolini appointed Achille Starace to his cabinet.
Starace criticized Northern Italian bourgeosie for Fascism's inability to permeate across the Italian nation, accusing them of being pacifist and pro-England.[167]
By 1940 Mussolini openly denounced capitalism, such as in a speech at the entry of Italy into World War II, saying: This conflict must not be allowed to cancel out all our achievements of the past eighteen years, nor, more importantly, extinguish the hope of a Third Alternative held out by Fascism to mankind fettered between the pillar of capitalist slavery and the post of Marxist chaos. The proponents of these obsolete doctrines must understand that the Fascist sword has been unsheathed twice before, in Ethiopia and in Spain, with known results.
—Benito Mussolini, 1940.[168]
Nazi officials, such as Joseph Goebbels and Heinrich Himmler, in private viewed Nazism as more radical than Italian Fascism that they identified as being too supportive of capitalism.[169] The Nazis argued that capitalism damages nations due to international finance, the economic dominance of big business, and Jewish influences within it.[170]
Adolf Hitler, both in public and in private, held strong disdain for capitalism; he accused modern capitalism of holding nations ransom in the interests of a parasitic cosmopolitan rentier class.[171] He opposed free-market capitalism's profit-seeking impulses and desired an economy in which community interests would be upheld.[172] He distrusted capitalism for being unreliable, due to it having an egotistic nature, and he preferred a state-directed economy.[171]
Hitler said: "It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will bow down before a higher god. Many things owe their existence solely to the longing for money and wealth, but there is very little among them whose non-existence would leave humanity any the poorer."[173] Hitler told one party leader in 1934, "The economic system of our day is the creation of the Jews."[174] In a discussion with Mussolini, Hitler said that "Capitalism had run its course".[171] In another conversation, Hitler stated that business bourgeoisie "know nothing except their profit. 'Fatherland' is only a word for them."[175] Adolf Hitler was personally disgusted with the ruling bourgeois elites of Germany that he obscenely referred to as a "cowardly s".[176]
The Spanish Falange also held anti-capitalist positions. Falangist leader José Antonio Primo de Rivera in 1935 declared that "We reject the capitalist system, which disregards the needs of the people, dehumanizes private property and transforms the workers into shapeless masses prone to misery and despair".[177] The Romanian Iron Guard espoused anti-capitalist, anti-banking and anti-bourgeois rhetoric.[178] The Arrow Cross Party of Hungary held strong anti-feudal and anti-capitalist beliefs and supported redistribution of property.[179]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism_and_ideology |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lagrangian
Lira, that's because you're a communist dictator a la Stalin. |
Oh, do elaborate, I have a feeling this is going to be awesome :D |
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| Lagrangian |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Oh, do elaborate, I have a feeling this is going to be awesome :D |
I was joking :p
Anyways, I really like what the baroness had to say about the National Front movement in the UK
| quote: | | I hate extremes of any kind. Communism and the National Front both seek the domination of the state over the individual. They both, I believe crush the right of the individual. To me, therefore, they are parties of a similar kind. All my life I have stood against banning Communism or other extremist organisations because, if you do that, they go underground and it gives them an excitement that they don't get if they are allowed to pursue their policies openly. We'll beat them into the ground on argument... The National Front is a Socialist Front. |
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher
| quote: | All of these approaches oversimplify fascism's complex relationship with capitalism. Certainly, both Italian and German fascists received crucial support in winning state power from sections of the business community, the military, and the state apparatus. Once established, the fascist regimes aided capitalism and boosted profits by suppressing the left, smashing the labor movement, and -- at first -- stabilizing the economy and society. Both Mussolini's and Hitler's governments initially included some traditional conservatives as junior members, and old elites kept control of some sectors, such as the army. The "radical" wings of the fascist movement that wanted to challenge old elites more directly were either frustrated, as in Italy, or suppressed, as in Germany.
But as the fascist regimes consolidated themselves, the capitalist class increasingly lost political control: it lost the power to determine the main direction of state policy. Fascism installed a new political elite that advanced its own ideological agenda. While capitalists remained an important constituent in the overall system of rule, they were progressively reduced to a reactive role at the level of national policy, adapting themselves to the fascists' agenda, not the reverse. |
| quote: | Fascist regimes challenge capitalist control of the state by taking political dominance away from the representatives of big business and subordinating capitalist interests to their own ideological agenda. But as a force that is committed to social hierarchy and rejects working-class socialism, fascism defends class exploitation. Historically, fascists have colluded with capitalists and bolstered the economic power of big business. Although fascists have often targeted specific capitalist features and even specific sectors of the business class, no fascist movement has substantively attacked capitalism's underlying structures, such as private property and the market economy. At most, a fascist revolution might radically reshape economic exploitation but would not abolish it.
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http://comminfo.rutgers.edu/~lyonsm/TwoWays.html
In 1933, John Maynard Keynes wrote an open letter to President Franklin Roosevelt urging the new president to borrow money to be spent on public works programs
| quote: | | Thus as the prime mover in the first stage of the technique of recovery I lay overwhelming emphasis on the increase of national purchasing power resulting from governmental expenditure which is financed by Loans and not by taxing present incomes. Nothing else counts in comparison with this. In a boom inflation can be caused by allowing unlimited credit to support the excited enthusiasm of business speculators. But in a slump governmental Loan expenditure is the only sure means of securing quickly a rising output at rising prices. That is why a war has always caused intense industrial activity. In the past orthodox finance has regarded a war as the only legitimate excuse for creating employment by governmental expenditure. You, Mr President, having cast off such fetters, are free to engage in the interests of peace and prosperity the technique which hitherto has only been allowed to serve the purposes of war and destruction. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Keynesianism
But, perhaps my views are more in-tune with those of dirigisme --
| quote: | Dirigisme is an economy in which the government exerts strong directive influence. It designates a mainly capitalist economy with strong directive, as opposed to merely regulatory, economic participation by the state.
Most modern economies can be characterized as dirigiste to some degree – for instance, state economic action may be exercised through subsidizing research and developing new technologies, or through government procurement, especially military (i.e. a form of mixed economy). Since the late 1980s, the economy of the People's Republic of China can be described as a dirigiste economy, as it is a heavily state-directed market economy. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirigisme
I'm confused, not sure what I stand for really. |
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| Spam |
Two big posts from Lagrangian and not even a single SHORT youtube clip?
Your bandwidth all used up bro? |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| oooh, just what i needed. a lecture on political theory from professor google. |
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| Zharen |
| This guy is ing weird. |
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