"It was more sophisticated than we had imagined: new documents show that the violent crackdown on Occupy last fall – so mystifying at the time – was not just coordinated at the level of the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security, and local police. The crackdown, which involved, as you may recall, violent arrests, group disruption, canister missiles to the skulls of protesters, people held in handcuffs so tight they were injured, people held in bondage till they were forced to wet or soil themselves –was coordinated with the big banks themselves. "
:stongue: American politics is such a joke. Whether or not occupy was a serious political threat, the fact that the American government publicly ignored it, but secretly took it very seriously and used the FBI very strongly against it is absolutely shameful. The day their economy gets crashed by republicans yet again will be rather amusing for me as an observer.
Lira
quote:
Originally posted by Psyshell
politics is such a joke.
Fixed.
quote:
Originally posted by Psyshell
The day their economy gets crashed by republicans yet again will be rather amusing for me as an observer.
If, that is, Australia is somehow immune to the crash... which is incredibly unlikely.
Sushipunk
quote:
Originally posted by Lira
If, that is, Australia is somehow immune to the crash... which is incredibly unlikely.
Yeah, very unlikely. Despite us having a lot of our eggs in the Asian basket, so to speak, if America's economy s itself any more than it already has, it's going to be a worldwide problem, Australia included.
Zharen
It'll probably happen, at least on the course we're going. High deficits, the most unproductive Congress since the 40's, no meaningful prosecution of the big banks or Wall Street except for small fines, and continued involvement in a most unpopular decades long war. I wouldn't be surprised to see Greece-style protests and riots begin in the next 3-4 years. Maybe even sooner, depending on how successful, or how abysmal Obamacare pans out.
Psyshell
Just because the negative effects would be felt worldwide doesn't undermine my point of "Americans are economically retarded".
quote:
Originally posted by Zharen
It'll probably happen, at least on the course we're going. High deficits, the most unproductive Congress since the 40's, no meaningful prosecution of the big banks or Wall Street except for small fines, and continued involvement in a most unpopular decades long war. I wouldn't be surprised to see Greece-style protests and riots begin in the next 3-4 years. Maybe even sooner, depending on how successful, or how abysmal Obamacare pans out.
On a more positive note. I hope that California secedes. I doubt there'll be too many riots, but I do think that the USA is fairly likely (at least 10%) to transform from a federation to a confederation. That type of effect in a superpower (don't forget, they basically lean an entire faction in the UN) would have major impacts on global politics though. If the US congress lets a state (or a group of states) secede then certain aspects of UN law will have to be rewritten.
I also think the American Green party will take the place of the tea party as the main serious third alternative to democrats/republicans. No one's stupid enough to elect anyone as right wing as a tea partier (or even anyone but a moderate republican)... and if they are... goodbye American economy. Even Romney said he wanted to cut spending, and get the budget into a surplus while also boosting the funding for the military. If that actually happened their economy would be destroyed. Imagine US spending being increased by 20% while the rest of the economy gets cuts? That'd be awful.
You can see a "third party" debate on the democracy now youtube channel/website to get an idea of what third party candidates are like. It includes the green party, some libertarian party (apparently not the main one who declined to attend) and a "protectionist" (strong nationalist) party (who as you can see... love to blame everything on immigrants).
Zharen
quote:
Originally posted by Psyshell
Just because the negative effects would be felt worldwide doesn't undermine my point of "Americans are economically retarded".
On a more positive note. I hope that California secedes.
Secession would lead to another civil war. Washington wouldn't just allow for any state, especially one the size of CA to just get up and leave the union. But if it came down to it, I'd be prepared to fight those corrupt sons of bitches. At this point I have absolutely no faith in my government. We'll see what happens though.
Psyshell
I don't think you can compare 2012 politics to 1800s politics. Imagine what the worlds reaction would be if 50,000 people were killed in America just because a state wanted to secede? There's no way they could remain a global diplomatic power. I don't think their government is quite that stupid (even if they didn't predict the arab spring). Bear in mind this is some serious theorcrafting so I'm not going to accuse anyone of being really stupid just because they can't predict the future in a set of circumstances that hasn't happened in over 100 years.
quote:
Originally posted by Zharen
Secession would lead to another civil war. Washington wouldn't just allow for any state, especially one the size of CA to just get up and leave the union. But if it came down to it, I'd be prepared to fight those corrupt sons of bitches. At this point I have absolutely no faith in my government. We'll see what happens though.
Lets do some quick predictions then:
American economy: Better or worse in 5 years?
American Unity: No states seceded in 5 years?
American economy: Better or worse in 5 years?
I'd say definitely worse. It's pretty unlikely the democrats can stay in forever and unless the republicans get entirely replaced as a party it's pretty much impossible for as radical a shift to the center to happen as would be required for them to not screw up the economy. I highly doubt they're going to abandon the military industrial complex for instance... and if they don't America is screwed as soon as they get elected.
American Unity: No states seceded in 5 years?
I'd say 50/50, most likely areas to secede would be California (and friends), New york and the North East, and Texas and friends (for a right wing state block). We have states openly disobeying federal law, I don't think the current balance of power between the states and the federal government can stay forever regardless of what the supreme court and the constitution says. If 80% of people in one state want to secede they will. Federal interference in California IMO will push the people towards a more radical anti federal stance. Have a look at the difference between what California democrat party policy is compared to federal policy. It's completely different.
Zharen
quote:
Originally posted by Psyshell
I don't think you can compare 2012 politics to 1800s politics. Imagine what the worlds reaction would be if 50,000 people were killed in America just because a state wanted to secede? There's no way they could remain a global diplomatic power. I don't think their government is quite that stupid (even if they didn't predict the arab spring). Bear in mind this is some serious theorcrafting so I'm not going to accuse anyone of being really stupid just because they can't predict the future in a set of circumstances that hasn't happened in over 100 years.
I'm sure they wouldn't immediately slaughter Californians at first. My guess is that they would first impose economic sanctions on the state. Then if that failed they would probably send undercover agents in to capture and detain suspected seccessionist leaders. Perhaps some sort of army involved lockdown, mandatory curfew etc. Eventually, tensions would run high enough that violence would inevitably follow, triggering a cry to rebel and casualties to rise. That's just my opinion though, susceptible to change depending on the events that follow in 2013 and 2014.
And God damnit why do you keep editing your posts? You make it practically impossible to do any real debating or relevant discourse with you.
Psyshell
The problem is that's pretty major and America isn't 100% of the worlds economy. I think that would damage their reputation internationally so badly that they simply wouldn't do it. How are they meant to critisize china for human rights abuses if they do that?
:haha: Economic sanctions on California... so basically California suddenly gets all it's food/oil from Canada/South America and pretty much the entire internet in the US goes down for a few weeks. If not, thousands of companies are left without tech support, every person in the USA running windows suddenly is running an illegitimate copy and all windows computers get remotely deactivated where possible. America would have to pass laws allowing intellectual property to only go one way if any public employees were allowed to use windows. I don't think everyone in the US being forced to transition to either mac/linux over the course of a single month would be good for economic growth.
Somehow... I don't think that's going to happen.
If I was to predict how it'd work, I'd say open borders between California to the USA (Great Britain/Ireland style) with the USA being in charge of Californian border patrols. Citizens of one are also citizens of the other and just generally not too many radical changes. Free trade between the two with a few exceptions (one I can think of is power may have tariffs in either direction, as may solar panels... etc etc).
Zharen
quote:
Originally posted by Psyshell
:haha: Economic sanctions on California... so basically California suddenly gets all it's food/oil from Canada/South America and pretty much the entire internet in the US goes down for a few weeks. If not, thousands of companies are left without tech support, every person in the USA running windows suddenly is running an illegitimate copy and all windows computers get remotely deactivated where possible.
I have no idea where you could have possibly gotten that from my last post but ok. You can laugh at the idea if you want. America may be economically retarded but it still is militarily superior. If they wanted to enforce sanctions or an all-out embargo on this state, I believe they easily could. Wouldn't be too hard to erect a No-fly zone around these skies. There's a naval base in Hawaii which would make it easy for warships and carriers to impose a blockade on Californian ports. They probably wouldn't touch the internet or disrupt electricity grids, but as long as goods were no longer flowing in or out of this state we'd be pretty much screwed. And I highly doubt we'd do much good relying on Mexico for trade, not with all that cartel violence around.
Psyshell
Ah, I thought you meant economic sanctions as in not military enforced. Just a softish embargo like the one USA has on Cuba. You're right, they're clearly inferior militarily. No doubt having to rely on land trade with Canada would be awful. Still though, both need each other economically, and so threats to do that aren't necessarily going to be entirely effective. Plus does the USA really want to be accused of constructing "the California wall"? Imagine how that'd go down in world politics.
