How much attention do you dedicate to drum fills in your tracks?
I was analysing some pieces and was thinking of how essential drum fills actually are. Sometimes a little drum fill/pause is needed to allow the track rolling. Without it, you'd get bored quite quickly.
In particular, I was listening this track:
The fill at 1:37 that carries the track, is so so simple and yet so effective. Listen the entire track, that fill is just essential imo.
So, to sum it up. Do you think drum fill are important, do you know any more tracks with effective drum fills and how do you personally create your own fills. Do you go with the flow exploiting the momentum or you engage some Mathematical approach?
DJ RANN
Drum fill certainly have their place and in some cases give defining structure to the track.
The most classic example of this EVAR is, of course:
The fill in this case frames all the moments of anticipation, and are actually a part of the phrase structuring.
Fill are also crucial components in songwriting, and not to get too deep or zen here, but when you mic/engineer a real drum kit for commercial, you always pan from the drummers perspective (unlike with score, where it's usually listener's perspective).
Why? So people listening to it can play their air drums, and a good fill is always the part that people gravitate most towards. It's essentially a periodic hook.
mistermerlin
yea they are really important. it adds life and organic aspect to the beat, adds feeling
Looney4Clooney
without the fills you have no groove.
Chronosis
Depends on the music, but on dance music, very.
Looney4Clooney
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
Drum fill certainly have their place and in some cases give defining structure to the track.
The most classic example of this EVAR is, of course:
The fill in this case frames all the moments of anticipation, and are actually a part of the phrase structuring.
Fill are also crucial components in songwriting, and not to get too deep or zen here, but when you mic/engineer a real drum kit for commercial, you always pan from the drummers perspective (unlike with score, where it's usually listener's perspective).
Why? So people listening to it can play their air drums, and a good fill is always the part that people gravitate most towards. It's essentially a periodic hook.
its interesting how this changed as people sort of became obsessed with drums. It was really after the first wave of rock were people understood drums and their placement that you got that sort of panning perspective.
Beatflux
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
Drum fill certainly have their place and in some cases give defining structure to the track.
The most classic example of this EVAR is, of course:
The fill in this case frames all the moments of anticipation, and are actually a part of the phrase structuring.
Fill are also crucial components in songwriting, and not to get too deep or zen here, but when you mic/engineer a real drum kit for commercial, you always pan from the drummers perspective (unlike with score, where it's usually listener's perspective).
Why? So people listening to it can play their air drums, and a good fill is always the part that people gravitate most towards. It's essentially a periodic hook.
Just depends on how drum heavy the song and genre are.
In melodic progressive house, I don't necessarily expect a drum fill to be present or take the focus at the end of an 8 bar phrase.
Some of Pryda's is very melodic focused, so there aren't fills to be had and they aren't really missed. I kind of hate white noise, but a lot of these "end pieces" as I call them, aren't usually creative.
From a rock perspective, I would expect the drummer to create a definate underlying structure, while the bass dances around it and the guitars can play however they wish on top of the beat. Right on the phrases, before, or after it doesn't matter if the drummer keeps up the foundation of the song.
Take early sampling and people would repeat a sample at the end of phrase to act as a sort of drum fill.
Then there were DAWs and that beget automation of filters and white noise to create structure of a song that could have been left in a more static and loopy state.
I think you don't need any kind of 8 bar anticipation at all for a song to be good. It really just depends on what a person is trying to achieve.
I think I could argue that since people are so used to the 8 bar, 32 bar structure that you don't even need an endpiece for people to know when the change is coming.
Looney4Clooney
quote:
Originally posted by Beatflux
I think I could argue that since people are so used to the 8 bar, 32 bar structure that you don't even need an endpiece for people to know when the change is coming.
except for most djs :P
DJ RANN
quote:
Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
its interesting how this changed as people sort of became obsessed with drums. It was really after the first wave of rock were people understood drums and their placement that you got that sort of panning perspective.
Spot on. It was really the obsession that came from rock that changed the engineering and planning placement. It's virtually impossible to find a rock track these days where the drums aren't drummers perspective
quote:
Originally posted by Beatflux
Just depends on how drum heavy the song and genre are.
In melodic progressive house, I don't necessarily expect a drum fill to be present or take the focus at the end of an 8 bar phrase.
I agree to a point - a lot of melodic prog doesn't need it per say, as is the programming structure but I suppose it's an aesthetic choice as the Gat decor track is melodic prog and I simply can't imagine it without those fills. I will say that prog has got more electronic (sic) in the respect that in the early days it was all samplers /basic drum machine and hard midi seqencers and therefore trying to do interesting drum programming was quite the task so fills were a much easier way to bring something organic and interesting in to the track to spice up the perc or grove etc
quote:
Originally posted by Beatflux
Some of Pryda's is very melodic focused, so there aren't fills to be had and they aren't really missed. I kind of hate white noise, but a lot of these "end pieces" as I call them, aren't usually creative.
Totally agree with that but Pryda is a the A-typical exception; he uses hardly any elements in his tracks and the real beauty is the simplicity of the ounds by themselves, somehow how adding up to more than the sum - it really is an artform that he is the master of, but in that respect he's not the best argument against not needing fills.
I have tried a good few times to do simple tracks like him and they just sound dull and the only way I can get them to eventually work is to add more layers, perc and sounds, which defeats the whole point and then is not that "pryda" sound.
quote:
Originally posted by Beatflux
From a rock perspective, I would expect the drummer to create a definate underlying structure, while the bass dances around it and the guitars can play however they wish on top of the beat. Right on the phrases, before, or after it doesn't matter if the drummer keeps up the foundation of the song.
So true. If you can find them, check out some interviews with Dave Grohl (Foo's) on this subject - I've seen him go in to depth about how being a drummer at core, he writes tracks from a drummer's perspective and that really is the bed for everything else to be arranged around
quote:
Originally posted by Beatflux
Take early sampling and people would repeat a sample at the end of phrase to act as a sort of drum fill.
Then there were DAWs and that beget automation of filters and white noise to create structure of a song that could have been left in a more static and loopy state.
I think you don't need any kind of 8 bar anticipation at all for a song to be good. It really just depends on what a person is trying to achieve.
I think I could argue that since people are so used to the 8 bar, 32 bar structure that you don't even need an endpiece for people to know when the change is coming.
Very true. In some ways, I am so ing sick of the white noise/rise that is used to ram it down your throat that a phrase is ending. We are now conditioned to know that 8/32 bars is the pattern and we can expect the structure to follow that.
Don't get me wrong; I know the snare fill (4ths then 8ths then 16ths the 32nds etc) were the white nose of the 90's (i.e. to denote a drop or end of phrase) but I really miss how song writing or better said melody programming is not the defining factor for phasing and now most dance track rely on such basic, overused and crude tools to dictate structure.
TranceElevation
Drum fills are one of the many subtle, but for this not less important elements, that as you said allow the track rolling, ie give the track consistency.
Surprised no one mentioned that in some tech house pieces the drum fills are actually the core element of the track itself.
Take for example this piece and try to imagine it without those little breaks/fills.
Without them, the character of the track would be completely destroyed.
Btw, that track is awesome.
The original mix is probably even better as an example
Beatflux
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
Totally agree with that but Pryda is a the A-typical exception; he uses hardly any elements in his tracks and the real beauty is the simplicity of the ounds by themselves, somehow how adding up to more than the sum - it really is an artform that he is the master of, but in that respect he's not the best argument against not needing fills.
I have tried a good few times to do simple tracks like him and they just sound dull and the only way I can get them to eventually work is to add more layers, perc and sounds, which defeats the whole point and then is not that "pryda" sound.
Let's talk more Pryda...
One of the THE biggest differences between Pryda and everyone else is how he mixes the track. Pryda automates very smoothly and its so seemless that a normal listener would not hear it. Heck, I wouldn't assume some producers to hear it to.
I remember Richie saying something to the effect that people want to hear a loop unchange, or to that effect. I think that is mostly true, and those fills help to stave off the unapologetic repetition in a lot of dance tracks, past and present.
However, Pryda's automation is so slow that you really don't even notice it. Especially in the beginning of the track he'll fade the focus of the track from one sound to another, kind of like a fade in a movie score. It's not just the fades...
He changes up his layering, automate filters, verbs, change underlying patterns, switch samples, panning, volume, eq, etc....and all of this is really really REALLY subtle.
This is the kind of I love from him:
His tracks are strong because he uses that automation to keep interest, and in this way he has circumvented the need to have to "switch it up every once in a while."
To go off on a tangent:
One of the more popular ideas of EDM is to fill a track with FX when it gets boring. This is why I kind of hate Psy-trance. You listen to the beginning and its all bleeps and booops, wooshes and swooshes, retarded vocals and then you get to the meat of the song and the FX all go away. Why not just skip the intro if its not going to serve a purpose.
Back to the original topic:
Even without the presence of automation, fills, and swtich ups you can have a strong track that relies on the merits of strong patterns and arrangement. If every 8 bars you have something added that isn't just fluff or what I would called "random FX", and it builds on itself then you can have a track without the need for fills.
Beatflux
quote:
Originally posted by TranceElevation
Drum fills are one of the many subtle, but for this not less important elements, that as you said allow the track rolling, ie give the track consistency.
Surprised no one mentioned that in some tech house pieces the drum fills are actually the core element of the track itself.
Take for example this piece and try to imagine it without those little breaks/fills.
Without them, the character of the track would be completely destroyed.
Btw, that track is awesome.
The original mix is probably even better as an example
That firs track takes a sound used as an FX then uses it as a fill. It's more interesting than just a fill, IMO.
