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Need help learning composition
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| vercetti |
As the title says. I believe I suck at the actual music composition and decided to put in serious hours learning that.
Now not sure how the time would be best spent.
Some of the things I'm going to do:
Import a few hundred tracks into DAW and create MIDI mock-ups (doing this now)
Read books about composition - which ones? Would Schoenberg's book be any applicable to modern EDM genres? Any other books?
How about studying scores of classical composers like Bach or Chopin? As I have no ambition to ever write film soundtracks, Wagner would be a waste of time then?
Anything else? Don't have any money to pay a professional composer to teach/mentor me, so that's out of the question. |
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| derail |
I'm a believer in just getting in and writing. Absolutely, it doesn't hurt to learn theory, read books etc, so do that as well.
But I'd say spend some time each day writing some melodies (either hum them, then turn them into midis, or if you can play an instrument, that's another option). Export each one as a short audio clip, then listen through them the next day or a few days later, and determine which melodies show promise and which aren't worth proceeding with. Much better than only writing one or two, which may or may not be that good, and spending hours taking them through to a finished product.
A lot of bands /artists back in the day, when they went into the studio to record a 10 song album, had about 100 songs/ideas in draft form. |
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| tehlord |
| When you say composition do you mean the structure and layout of the track, or melodic content and how that weaves together to make a story? |
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| meriter |
| absorb the classics from every decade |
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| vercetti |
| quote: | Originally posted by tehlord
When you say composition do you mean the structure and layout of the track, or melodic content and how that weaves together to make a story? |
Melodic content and *why* the notes are where they are and why they sound good.
Let's say I have a drum beat, a great bassline and now trying to write a lead. So far my method was "bang keys till it sounds good" I'm sick with it and sick of all the time wasted using this . 5 hours later I discarded 200 melodies, the best 10 or 20 were mediocre or a touch above mediocre, nothing really good. Some other day I load the song, 5 more hours later same thing. Same again next day.
Another method - take something good and change a thing or 2. OK, I quite like BT - "Godspeed" I play that lead - sounds great, then change a note or 2 or a rhythm and then it starts sounding like . Not a great result.
I just don't understand why melody goes up when it does or down and how to write that "call and response" thing effectively and things like that.
Verdi wrote Rigoletto in 40 days. If he used "bang the keys till it sounds good" method it would've taken him 10 years and still sound a bit .
Hope that makes sense. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
composition at least the sort of composition you mentioned in music is the same as any other serious art form. I only mention serious art because that is what they call it. I didn't coin it. The main component is structure and form. That supersedes melody , chords and everything else. The basic idea is to make something out of as few elements as possible while creating something from using those small fragments into something that has a coherent structure.
Form - 6 years of daily study
harmony - 6 years of intense study every day
counterpoint - 2 years of intense study every day
orchestration - 4 years of intense study
score reading - every day for the rest of your life.
If you have a natural knack for music which you don't, it would take about 10 years to be somewhat competent.
I would say at this point, it is all over your head and you would be better off looking at modern music. There are very few people that can decipher wagner so I wouldn't even bother with that. i mean can you even read music ? I think you would need 2 years of just learning the prerequisites to even start learning the craft.
It isn't impossible but it is a huge investment of time. I spent about 7 years every day all day and i had 21 years of playing instruments under my belt.
Your question is really is silly as asking , how do I make trance. There are a bunch of topics you need to know and then you need to put it all together. But unlike EDM, there is no real guide or textbook. There is no textbook to teach advanced harmony. There are a few that look at form but not really. There really isn't much that goes beyond the basics. The ultimate tool you use in the end is learning from scores and hearing the works live. You can't learn orchestration in your bedroom. |
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| vercetti |
FML. That's like hearing from a doctor "you got 3 months to live, lol jk it's 3 days actually"
Oh well. Guess I'll just do techno then.
Edit: yeah I can read music, and I had some education in harmony *not up to a deep level* and played classical piano for a few years.
Overall think community college level. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
Brahms took 20 years to compose his first symphony. And he was labelled the next beethoven as a child. I suppose that added to the anxiety of being good thus making him so paranoid not to suck.
But ya, it is basically EDM x 100. And the worst part is that you would be learning tonal composition which is irrelevant. It has no real application other than commercial. You would have to go thru all the main trends, atonal , jazz i mean right up to EDM which is a form of composition.
I'm not saying it is impossible but it is a huge investment in time. The fact that someone is asking such a vague question tells me that person is not really that interested and is just waffing about and i can tell you that unless you have some personality disorder that makes it ok to just do music for 8 hours a day, you aren't really ever going to get to a point were you can do anything.
For beter or worse, i have some massive disorders and I was happy to shed 8 hours a day every day for at least 10 years. It is something you start doing in your teens because most adults can't do that unless it is your job which it is for me. But if you are working and can only spare 2 hours a day. I mean you are looking at 20 years at least. So you will be 50. Is it worth not having a life so you can do this at 50. For some it is, but like i saidm you would have to be nuts. I am pretty ing nutters although i do like to think it is the good kind that would be called eccentric rather than crazy, but ya , doing something for 8 hours , something that would be considered the worst investment to future monetary gains for that long is not normal and if you are normal, you will hate it.
hmmm for some reason i thought stephen wiley made this thread. Redact the bit about musical competency as I don't really know you. |
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| vercetti |
Yeah I have personality disorders alright. Such as addictive personality and being addicted to music is marginally better than chemicals and certain things called computer crack and .
Which means spending the next 50 years doing music for 10 hours a day every day wouldn't be that bad considering the alternatives.
Absolutely not interested in atonal and jazz, this is in the context of EDM only, which is relatively easy. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
| then i would say it is all pretty much useless and you are wasting your time. Classical composition is just an aesthetic. If anything, it will make you worse EDM producer for many reasons. |
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| tehlord |
Learn to actually play, first with scales, then with simple pieces and do that for a couple of years.
Eventually you just start to hear the melody in your head (or at least I do) and you don't actually need to think about it any more.
It's just brain rewiring.
You will not learn it in a couple of months, even if you stick at it for 10 hours a day. |
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| DjStephenWiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by vercetti
As the title says. I believe I suck at the actual music composition and decided to put in serious hours learning that.
Now not sure how the time would be best spent.
Some of the things I'm going to do:
Import a few hundred tracks into DAW and create MIDI mock-ups (doing this now)
Read books about composition - which ones? Would Schoenberg's book be any applicable to modern EDM genres? Any other books?
How about studying scores of classical composers like Bach or Chopin? As I have no ambition to ever write film soundtracks, Wagner would be a waste of time then?
Anything else? Don't have any money to pay a professional composer to teach/mentor me, so that's out of the question. |
What are your goals?
What kind of music are we talking about here?
There are some shortcuts, but in the end it's all about repetition and creating that muscle memory. Personally, I would ignore all of the "It takes a decade to learn to compose" posts. While that may be true, it doesn't take a decade to learn most forms of dance music, which is I'm assuming what you're interested in.
Where are you struggling? Arrangement is all about practice and doing it over and over and over, and then over again and learning tricks along the way.
If you want to "practice" - I have found the simple and best way is to get simple packs and arrange them into songs. I wouldn't go around writing my name on them for everyone to see and sticking my chest out though. The point here is repetition, practice, etc. Focus on tracks your comfortable with at first, then try arranging a melody you absolutely hate. If you can get some in-depth project files (printed audio to every track isn't gonna be very helpful) from friends that can help too, so you can see all their little tricks. Another thing I do is just search youtube and watch how people work in the DAW I use, Ableton. There are videos out there where you can literally watch someone create a track from beginning to end, which I find incredibly helpful. |
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