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Mixing help wanted
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| Von Pistol |
Sup,
First off I'm not a mixing/mastering pro so I may use some wrong words or not explain myself properly
So I read some lit regarding mixing (volume levels, eq, compression..etc) on "sound on sound" and various other sites. It was a while ago so I can't link.
From what I understood I should be trying to get the volume levels of my individual tracks ( kick, perc, synth.... Etc) as close to 0db as possible when mixing.
HOWEVER, now my buddy is saying he learnt that it's better to have individual track levels around -12db while mixing so there is more headroom when mastering...
So I am lost with this and I have tried searching the google for mixing info but I don't know who to trust on it and I can't really even find any intermediate/advanced mixing reads.
If anyone could link me a good read on this subject I would appreciate. Also, yes I could keep looking online but I thought why not ask you guys cuz I know you like to help :)
Thanks bros |
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| vercetti |
| Google gain staging. If you're using no acoustic instruments or vocals, synths and samplers only, if I understand correctly it doesn't matter at all. |
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| clay |
| quote: | Originally posted by Von Pistol
Sup,
First off I'm not a mixing/mastering pro so I may use some wrong words or not explain myself properly
So I read some lit regarding mixing (volume levels, eq, compression..etc) on "sound on sound" and various other sites. It was a while ago so I can't link.
From what I understood I should be trying to get the volume levels of my individual tracks ( kick, perc, synth.... Etc) as close to 0db as possible when mixing.
No. The total sum volume of all channels should be close to 0dB (after mastering), or maybe -1dB just to be sure it doesnt distort on crappy soundcards. but the individual channels needs to be alot lower due to how volume is summerized. 3dB is doubling of sound. Lets say you have two instruments on separate channels both playing the exact same sound at 0dB. your sum will then be +3dB and the master will distort. if you have four channels you need to leave enough headroom for those 4*3dB = -12dB (considering same frequencies. this is why many people say -12dB because you will probably not have more than 4 instruments playing on same frequencies (bass+kick on low freqs, leads, arps, vocals and snares in the middle, hihats, strings whatever on top).
HOWEVER, now my buddy is saying he learnt that it's better to have individual track levels around -12db while mixing so there is more headroom when mastering...
yes this makes sense but its really just a place to start and can be adjusted as you go. If your track have 16 channels of sound, each of them would need more headroom so maybe each of them should be around -15 or -20?? depends on the instruments sound and how they clash in frequencies really. if youre making a 5ch minimal track then they could be like -8dB for example - its all dependent on how much information you really have, and also how much clashing frequecies are sidechained away from each other leaving headroom. this is a matter of mixing, eqing and sidechaining and any number of -dB is just a place to start of.
another thing to keep in mind is this (many do this wrong). dont think about the channel fader and its position, look at the channel meter, this is where the "real" dB is. even if the channel fader is at -12dB doesnt mean the actual sound is -12dB, that depends on the instrument and efex used, so look at the meter (maybe you already do :))
So I am lost with this and I have tried searching the google for mixing info but I don't know who to trust on it and I can't really even find any intermediate/advanced mixing reads.
If anyone could link me a good read on this subject I would appreciate. Also, yes I could keep looking online but I thought why not ask you guys cuz I know you like to help :)
Thanks bros |
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| derail |
You've misunderstood the context.
Having hot levels/levels close to 0dBDFS only matters at the recording stage. You don't want to lose significant information at this point.
After this, you can put the individual faders anywhere you want, then use the master fader to set the mix to peak just under 0dBDFS. In the digital realm, this won't lead to a loss of information.
Make sure that whenever you read something that you're aware of the exact context. I've seen many examples of people trying to apply mixing techniques for rock basses to trance basses and wondering why they're not getting the results they want. Or saying "with EQ, never boost, always cut", without taking into account the context.
Learning something incorrectly is worse than not learning it at all. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by clay
Originally posted by Von Pistol
Sup,
First off I'm not a mixing/mastering pro so I may use some wrong words or not explain myself properly
So I read some lit regarding mixing (volume levels, eq, compression..etc) on "sound on sound" and various other sites. It was a while ago so I can't link.
From what I understood I should be trying to get the volume levels of my individual tracks ( kick, perc, synth.... Etc) as close to 0db as possible when mixing.
No. The total sum volume of all channels should be close to 0dB (after mastering), or maybe -1dB just to be sure it doesnt distort on crappy soundcards. but the individual channels needs to be alot lower due to how volume is summerized. 3dB is doubling of sound. Lets say you have two instruments on separate channels both playing the exact same sound at 0dB. your sum will then be +3dB and the master will distort. if you have four channels you need to leave enough headroom for those 4*3dB = -12dB (considering same frequencies. this is why many people say -12dB because you will probably not have more than 4 instruments playing on same frequencies (bass+kick on low freqs, leads, arps, vocals and snares in the middle, hihats, strings whatever on top).
HOWEVER, now my buddy is saying he learnt that it's better to have individual track levels around -12db while mixing so there is more headroom when mastering...
yes this makes sense but its really just a place to start and can be adjusted as you go. If your track have 16 channels of sound, each of them would need more headroom so maybe each of them should be around -15 or -20?? depends on the instruments sound and how they clash in frequencies really. if youre making a 5ch minimal track then they could be like -8dB for example - its all dependent on how much information you really have, and also how much clashing frequecies are sidechained away from each other leaving headroom. this is a matter of mixing, eqing and sidechaining and any number of -dB is just a place to start of.
another thing to keep in mind is this (many do this wrong). dont think about the channel fader and its position, look at the channel meter, this is where the "real" dB is. even if the channel fader is at -12dB doesnt mean the actual sound is -12dB, that depends on the instrument and efex used, so look at the meter (maybe you already do )
So I am lost with this and I have tried searching the google for mixing info but I don't know who to trust on it and I can't really even find any intermediate/advanced mixing reads.
If anyone could link me a good read on this subject I would appreciate. Also, yes I could keep looking online but I thought why not ask you guys cuz I know you like to help
Thanks bros
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Dang, good post. Did you C&P that from somewhere? |
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| Looney4Clooney |
unless you are a hot shot mixer that can work a board like Paulino works a homeless guy's but, you really don't need to record synths hot. I mean -20dBfs is good enough. granted this is the sort of music were you aren't going to get large chances in volume so i don't see why you can't get -6 without riding and not having it clipped.
hotter will technically result in less noise therefore a better recording but at a certain point especially with things that aren't live were noise actually comes into play, it just doesn't matter. don't clip. 24 bit or 32 float just makes this a non issue.
If you plan to work at an actual studio, then gain staging might come into play even using 32 float which nobody actually uses in a real studio because they know how to mix but ya, at home, making EDM, its just not a big deal. |
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| Juan Paulino |
| You laptop gazing slut. |
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| clay |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
unless you are a hot shot mixer that can work a board like Paulino works a homeless guy's but, you really don't need to record synths hot. I mean -20dBfs is good enough. granted this is the sort of music were you aren't going to get large chances in volume so i don't see why you can't get -6 without riding and not having it clipped.
hotter will technically result in less noise therefore a better recording but at a certain point especially with things that aren't live were noise actually comes into play, it just doesn't matter. don't clip. 24 bit or 32 float just makes this a non issue.
If you plan to work at an actual studio, then gain staging might come into play even using 32 float which nobody actually uses in a real studio because they know how to mix but ya, at home, making EDM, its just not a big deal. |
i dont think he is recording anything, i believe he works entirely in the box and just wonder about mixer levels, not recording really. not really sure though but it doesn't seem so. talking about noisefloor etc isnt really applicable in this setting imo as there is none. |
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| Juan Paulino |
Your mixes will sound better with an SSD!
You will be able to tell with channels need lowering and raising.
SSD = Maximum quality |
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| clay |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Dang, good post. Did you C&P that from somewhere? |
no its all pretty much common sense for me now after i understood that 3dB is doubling of sound-pressure/volume :)
suddenly can i calculate how big amp i need for my speakers out from max effect and sensitivity and also from that calculate max spl too.
the magic is gone. |
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| Von Pistol |
Thanks for all the replies guys, I appreciate.
Is it possible to explain this sound doubling process a little bit more so I can understand it a little bit better?
From what I understand:
If I have 6 individual synths playing at the same time and covering the same frequencies, all 6 of the mixer volume levels should be at -18bd each? Or would I adjust those separate tracks to what ever volume I want them to sit at and then reduce the master volume to -18db? Or am I getting this all wrong and I am far off haha?
Does anybody know any trustworthy reads about this? And mixing for different genres in general. Or perhaps any youtube vids?
Thanks a bunch friends. I'm glad there are people willing to help learn me and not just troll me :) |
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| clay |
sound volume is logarithmic or something. Wikipedia is your friend.
6 channels is a bit more difficult to calculate
2 same sounds = +3dB
4 same sounds = +6dB
8 same sounds = +9dB
etc
each doubling is 3dB (8 is 2*2*2 = 3 doublings -> 3*3 = 9dB.
my last calculation about 4*3dB isnt correct after all. im sorry.
6 channels of the same sound would be like + 7,5dB or something like that.
find the logarithmic formula on Wikipedia |
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