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things I've learned in the last few months - got my head down and really pushed for q (pg. 2)
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| Evolve140 |
| yep, around 250 is the easiest to mess up or mud up, but if you get it right it sounds great. |
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| optik |
| quote: | Originally posted by Evolve140
Bottom line is that anything that low isn't useful. Better to make what bass range you do have to work with sound as good as you can get it to sound than sitting here willy nilly talking about something that you are making far too complicated than it needs to be. |
a little unfair, I only said originally cut low frequencies and then corrected an incorrect assertion that no monitors could produce under 50hz. I'm not sure how that's making it complicated. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by optik
You're right it was a ty test.. but I would challenge you to high cut your next track at 15khz and release it; you won't because it will sound different and wrong - much to do with the aforementioned roll off
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When I do HP or LP EQ like that, I normally do a 48db shelf. The roll off to lower freq is minimal. I don't necessarily kill the upper though; that bit doesn't bother me as we can't hear it. Human range is not up to 20k. It's 17k and that's at best, in a zero ambient noise environment. The lo frequency is more important to shelve as that will do nothing apart from make your speaker freak out.
I used to sell Bluesky monitors, when I managed the exclusive UK distributor for them. The small satellite speakers don't get anything close to 70hz, let alone 30hz and...
A) there's not such thing as a 2.0 or 2.1 monitoring system. That would suggest there is a discrete LFE channel, which there isn't, nor even a standardised protocol for.
B) All of the bluesky subs list 40hz as their lower limit (with exception to their latest d12 model which lists 25hz but I aint buying), and even then good luck getting anything accurate out of them that low. The problem is the wavelengths are too long and the power needed too high at the freqency to accurately reproduce in a consumer product.
I'm not saying bluesky are bad monitors by any means, just in all my experience with them, I never heard anything below 80hz come out of them that was an accurate representation.
| quote: | Originally posted by optik
I agree about the bass frequency length - they can be longer than the room; but you can hear bass even in a field if it's directed at you.
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Bass (or at least the perception of it) is omnidirectional below 100hz, so you feel it rather than hear it, and in a field it's fine because you have a large space, larger than the wavelength. See where I'm going? ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by optik
in a home studio it's hard to get right, hence bass traps and all sorts of furniture placement, this part I'll agree with
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Exactly, that's why subs should be used in home studio, or in fact ANY studio that's mixing for Stereo productions. I can bore you to tears if you want with my threads on this subject.
| quote: | Originally posted by optik
I don't think it's a myth to say that some monitors can do 30 hz - maybe a myth to say it's impossible to reproduce without spending £5k
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Incredibly rare is the answer and you're looking really at $10k for anything that you could rely on. |
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| optik |
of course the small speakers don't get anywhere near 70hz mate - the crossover point is somewhere in the 110hz range as far as I know.
sory to use the incorrect terms - by 2.0 I meant two monitors and no sub - I was trying to suggest that I do have a closed, separately amped 8inch sub sitting right at my feet making the most of the fact that bass is omnidirectional. No need for a dedicated LFE out, as thats what the crossovers do. The signal trace I posted was from Bluesky themselves, I didn't make it up, honest!
I can play a 30hz sine wave and hear it just fine; it's low, I'll give you that and you certainly feel it, even if that is a bit inaccurate and I'm just hearing overtones, surely thats still something to consider in a mix? especially for clubs with Funktion ones like these (http://www.funktion-one.com/products/f221/) - I've been in front of a few of these and you can feel the bass rather well ;)
to blindly cut anything below, what was it you said 50hz seems rather counterintuitive, considering that these systems are regularly installed even in ty clubs..
Can you point me to any tracks where I can see that the bottom end has been cut at 50hz? - I'd be really interested to hear them and see if I'm just talking code
try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abXT1n6AhmA
I can both hear it and feel it through my sub.. have I too much 420ed?
really interested to hear your reply, as you sld these things you must know a fair bit about them. |
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| DJ RANN |
I really,really didn't want to go here (and I had a feeling it would) as I've banged on about the use of Subs (and why you shouldn't) etc so many times in the past but here goes....
Let me preface this by saying all the things you keep mentioning, I am rather familiar with.....
I used to sell bluesky monitors (in fact I launched them and many other brands in the UK) while working as the manager of Europe's largest pro audio retailer and distributor. I used to know the guy that founded them and have had long conversations with him about speaker design (THX certification being one part of it, but more on that later)
Following that, I worked for the no.1 studio/live peripheral compoenent supplier in the UK, where Funktion1 was one of my biggest accounts. From 2003 to 2006, every Funktion1 system installed in the world, had cables/racking that I supplied.
After that I worked my way up through various studios and finally landed in LA working as a mix engineer for one of the most well known film composers, working 99% of 5.1, occasionally 7.1 and a couple of times in 12.1. This means I know about surround in a real world environment.
| quote: | Originally posted by optik
of course the small speakers don't get anywhere near 70hz mate - the crossover point is somewhere in the 110hz range as far as I know.
sory to use the incorrect terms - by 2.0 I meant two monitors and no sub - I was trying to suggest that I do have a closed, separately amped 8inch sub sitting right at my feet making the most of the fact that bass is omnidirectional. No need for a dedicated LFE out, as thats what the crossovers do.
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This is where the problems all begin. So tell me what are the industry standards or defined protocols for crossover points that manufacturers use for speaker design in stereo systems?
No? That's because there isn't one.
Due to the inherent physical characteristics of Stero audio as a format, there is absolutely no need from a technical standpoint.
I won't bore everyone to tears again with why, but if you
If you want to read on up
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...s=#.U1bdPPldXnh
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...99#.U1bcOfldXng
| quote: | Originally posted by optik
I can play a 30hz sine wave and hear it just fine; it's low, I'll give you that and you certainly feel it, even if that is a bit inaccurate and I'm just hearing overtones, surely thats still something to consider in a mix? especially for clubs with Funktion ones like these (http://www.funktion-one.com/products/f221/) - I've been in front of a few of these and you can feel the bass rather well ;)
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I hate to break it to you but year really don't "hear" 30hz, you feel it. I really think you're hearing overtones. Big club systems rarely go that low, especially not in EDM. Now if you were talking about how you just got back from Jamaica and they let a white boy from Oxford go to a soundsystem battle, then *maybe* you might be hearing bass as low as that. Again, I know Funktion1 innately and frankly they are by far the best systems out there but most decent club engineers don't even want LF going that low as all it does it shake fixtures loose at high SPL's.
| quote: | Originally posted by optik
to blindly cut anything below, what was it you said 50hz seems rather counterintuitive, considering that these systems are regularly installed even in ty clubs..
Can you point me to any tracks where I can see that the bottom end has been cut at 50hz? - I'd be really interested to hear them and see if I'm just talking code
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Again, most club systems won't go below 50hz and when they do it will sound like turd, so as a producer you can negate that problem for your tracks. Regardless 80hz is true sub bass, which you feel and will let you e-puddle as much as you want. Below 50hz is redundant, in the same way as making sure your have content above 18khz is.
Yeah, you're hearing a ton of distortion there. Load up a sine generator and dial in 30hz. Your sub will output something (probably doing it's best to get close) but you won't hear it as a tone. |
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| optik |
~I think I'm learning something;
I used this to check: http://www.audiocheck.net/audiofrequencysignalgenerator_sinetone.php
generated a 30hz tone and could hear bass really rather well,
generated a 20hz and heard far less..
is that a decent sine wave generator or would you recommend a different one?
in answer to your question:
This is where the problems all begin. So tell me what are the industry standards or defined protocols for crossover points that manufacturers use for speaker design in stereo systems?
there isn't one as far as I know, THX certification doesn't even define things like that as far as I know - so the only solution is to buy a sub and satellite system that are engineered to go together - like the ones your mate designed and I have.
I have to say I disagree with your assertions about well matched subs being bad for production, the delay time issue is a non issue as the sub is an equal distance to you as the satellites in a near field configuration - and in any case I tend to mono-ise anything below 110 huz anyway. It's much better to have a non ported sub + satellites than a pair of ported monitors, and mid-range detail is greater as the mid cones are not doing so much extra work (in comparison to a set of standard 2 way monitors)
I would honestly like to hear some tracks that have been cut at 50 htz, I'll look in Blue Cat's FreqAnalyst - which you'll hopefully agree will give a good indication of the frequencies in the recording. The reason I'm asking this is that I've looked at many professionally mastered dance tracks over the years and don't think I've seen any that don't have acoustic energy below 50hz, and I'd love to hear some that have none - for reference.
interesting to hear your opinion on this
t |
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| Looney4Clooney |
You are hearing cross modulation distortion. Not 30 hz
But you are missing the point of mixing. Mixing is essentially a compromise given the limitations presented, why would you mix for a situation thst is not only very uncommon but adds no real benefit while presenting a load of issues less than perfect systems thst are not maintained which is 99% of them.
Subs are bad because people like you don't understand physics and you will introduce mor issues, |
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| optik |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
You are hearing cross modulation distortion. Not 30 hz
But you are missing the point of mixing. Mixing is essentially a compromise given the limitations presented, why would you mix for a situation thst is not only very uncommon but adds no real benefit while presenting a load of issues less than perfect systems that are not maintained which is 99% of them.
Subs are bad because people like you don't understand physics and you will introduce mor issues, |
Cloony, I started this discussion with a piece of (however misguided)advice to do a low cut 24hz is effectively lowering all sub bass from 20-40 hz in any case.
I obviously mis understand cross modulation distortion, as I thought that there had to be two tones playing for that to happen. I would have thought I was hearing just distortion, or a room mode.
I think I do understand a bit of physics, but obviously not completely - I'm no feinman. I don't see why a coil driving a large speaker cannot move backwards and forwards at 30hz and move enough air for me to pick up that movement with my ears. I thought some church organs could go down past 30hz, and bottom key on a piano was close to the 30hz range.
I do understand that there are issues of resonance, and that is what I might be hearing, but if it really is practice to cut below 50hz, why can't I find any tracks that do this?
it's weird, you argued against Rann in the post he linked, it's tempting to think you just like an argument.
I agree though, that most systems can't reproduce sub bass, most good hifi only reproduces accurately to about 40hz, but will produce some sub bass that is lower (it doesn't just stop producing vibrations, the response just gets worse) - but we were talking about two specific things, my sub and Funktion 1 systems. If this discussion were about everything that can reproduce a track, I'd agree that there is no point in any bass below 50hz.. in fact on the first page, one of my suggestions was to patch in a ty hifi to make sure you aren't messing up the sound for the 99%..
I would have thought that was good advice that fulfils the criteria of mixing towards a compromise of limitations.. |
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| optik |
RANN
this is getting interesting - this is what I'm trying to get across about mastered tracks having LF content - I used these settings, to get peaks across about 20 seconds of the main section of two tracks:
The beatport track looks like this:
(you can see the track title above the Span window)
and my track looks like this:
- The beatport track was generally in the 50+ hz range, but had many instances of an effect sound crashing down into the low range.
note that span is set to only view the low range up to about 120hz
I tried a low cut at 50hz on my most recent track and it lost just a bit of its drive - used waves linear low band on accurate - is this what you suggest?
T |
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| future_newbie |
| Optik is the only guy on here who's tracks have been played on asot. Yet you got some theory scientists like RANN who pretend to be some sort of audio gurus, but never posted a single decent work of their own (just like me) but I'm a noob and I know it at least. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
Me and ran n only disagree on the application of the facts, his focal point being clients that don't know enough and have ideal rooms and me describing. What works for me and why it works.
Distortion in the actual driver. You don't hear 30. Cutting at a hz without the cutoff rate means nothing. But a 6dB slope at 20 not only leaves 40 untouched but you get a little peak there as well.
And look at your track, you have a nasty peak at 50. What exactly are you gaining? |
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