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things I've learned in the last few months - got my head down and really pushed for q (pg. 3)
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| optik |
goes up to -18 cloons - the scale is important - that little lump is ok remember thats an average of peak across 20 seconds, not an RTA.
to me a cut means greater than 30db
mine seems to be the one with less sub to me, and I don't cut at 50hz, much lower
it sounds like you both mix/listen on 5" driver monitors to me - but there are genelec 8"ers out there for a reason, and it's not because bigger monitors look beter |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
You are hearing cross modulation distortion. Not 30 hz
But you are missing the point of mixing. Mixing is essentially a compromise given the limitations presented, why would you mix for a situation thst is not only very uncommon but adds no real benefit while presenting a load of issues less than perfect systems thst are not maintained which is 99% of them.
Subs are bad because people like you don't understand physics and you will introduce mor issues, |
Amen brother. This sums up what I've been trying (and failing) to say.
| quote: | Originally posted by optik
~I think I'm learning something;
I used this to check: http://www.audiocheck.net/audiofreq...or_sinetone.php
generated a 30hz tone and could hear bass really rather well,
generated a 20hz and heard far less..
is that a decent sine wave generator or would you recommend a different one?
in answer to your question:
This is where the problems all begin. So tell me what are the industry standards or defined protocols for crossover points that manufacturers use for speaker design in stereo systems?
there isn't one as far as I know, THX certification doesn't even define things like that as far as I know - so the only solution is to buy a sub and satellite system that are engineered to go together - like the ones your mate designed and I have.
I have to say I disagree with your assertions about well matched subs being bad for production, the delay time issue is a non issue as the sub is an equal distance to you as the satellites in a near field configuration - and in any case I tend to mono-ise anything below 110 huz anyway. It's much better to have a non ported sub + satellites than a pair of ported monitors, and mid-range detail is greater as the mid cones are not doing so much extra work (in comparison to a set of standard 2 way monitors)
I would honestly like to hear some tracks that have been cut at 50 htz, I'll look in Blue Cat's FreqAnalyst - which you'll hopefully agree will give a good indication of the frequencies in the recording. The reason I'm asking this is that I've looked at many professionally mastered dance tracks over the years and don't think I've seen any that don't have acoustic energy below 50hz, and I'd love to hear some that have - for reference.
interesting to hear your opinion on this
t |
Did you actually read the threads I posted? Your response seems to indicate not. One is literally titled: why you don't need a sub for producing in Stereo.
Now, if you *like* using a sub, like you may like listening to a hifi coloring your sound, then that's absolutely fine, but it's generally speaking bad practice for producing. I'm not saying you can't. There's plenty of people who manage it - You can learn to produce around it or with it, but why make life harder.
All your doing is unnaturally affecting the reproduction of your audio signals, then trying to learn to produce around it, which is the antithesis of the pursuit of flat monitoring so that things translate easily.
For every reason you try to suggest using a sub (apart from that you just like it), I can qualitatively demonstrate, in technical real world terms, why it't really not a wise choice, and causes more problems than anything it adds. Honestly, just read that thread.
Do you think it's a conspiracy that every pro studio only uses subs for 5.1+ systems? In all the studios I've ever worked in, I would have been swiftly ejected by the senior engineer if I suggested switching on the amp when working in stereo.
Any sine wave generator is fine. You may well be getting some 30hz there but again, I believe it won't be close to accurate at you're at the very lower limit of your sub's output and the SPL won't match what is meant to be outputted. It's probably as much as 3db or more off, which is a massive roll off when compared the rest, of what is meant to be a flat frequency response. Remember that; it;s not just about getting bass. It's about the range being equal, not just "can my speakers put something out at the HZ".
Well designed ported monitors will easily outperform speakers and a sub. Speaker design over the last 100 years has allowed us to accomodate the full frequency spectrum. Don't forget, some monitors such as PMC, B&W, Barefoots, Focals use different size cones for each band (in B&W and PMC's case you get several cones just handling bass, 2 handling mids etc).
Blue sky has had to rely on subs as their small cabinet design doesn't have the bass reflex needed. Why is that? Because the Aussie guy that made them was cranking them out of his garage when he first started the company. They were meant to be small nearfield monitors.
Then (according to him) a chance encounter led George Lucas to order 80 pairs of them for skywalker ranch, his production facility in San Francisco, apparently to replace a the defacto Mackie THX certified monitors that were installed and ageing.
Skywalker ranch does nearly everything in surround (5.1 or more), and hence why small monitors with a sub are the standard.
Bluesky was founded to meet that need. Now don't get me wrong, they're great monitors, and anyone should be able to produce on them, but hands down, I'd choose a stereo pair as my preference over a pseudo 2.1 system.
On the topic of the low cut, I think you're taking it a bit far. I'm not saying slap a EQ on the master and remove anything below 50hz. What I'm saying is that below that point things get messy in terms of accuracy (both from a production point of view, monitoring standpoint unless you have really amazing speakers, and from a live sound reinforcement standpoint) as many systems simply can't handle it.
I used to work in (as a house engineer), and with (as a tech supplier) for many clubs both in the UK (MoS, Fabric, Bagleys etc), Canada and the USA, and hardly any of them liked the way their systems performed at very low HZ, and would work around wherever possible. One club in Toronto I worked at literally made us shelf everything below 60hz as the rafters would vibrate too much.
Again going back to what L4C said, mixing is about compromise in given set of limitations.
My person preference is to cut everything that doesn't have bass content, below 80hz and if it's mainly mid-hi elements, then HP at 250hz. For bass, I let it go right down but will do a sharp shelf so there's basically only a tail off/shallow roll off from 40hz. Of course, that's partly because my speakers won't do too well with much below 50hz, but then again, that's the vast majority of your listeners and clubs, so it makes sense. |
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| DJ RANN |
| P.s. THX's lower crossover is 80hz ;) |
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| optik |
Rann,
I can sum up my response to your detailed reply quite quickly - I have to, stuff to do.
I read the posts, they were mainly based around your subjective experience (and by proxy some people you've worked with)and your qualitative assessment - the issue your argument has it that I'm arguing against your subjective truth with responses to what you've asked me to do - my experience right now doesn't match your memory of experience. You don't need to be a car mechanic to sell a car.
I'm just not sure how relevant the blue sky story is (skywalker), but I am certain it's not an argument - it doesn't matter who made them or why they were made: they are nearfield satellites paired with a specific unported sub designed to run together to produce a flat frequency response across the range, and the quantitative (not qualitative) evidence points to that being the case, as do many reviews by expert sources.
my position is this - I would rather have semi accurate bass reproduction in the 30-50hz range than no bass reproduction in the 30-50hz range, especially if the monitors have ports to extend their bass range (which should be outlawed, or at least those that use them should be aware of the issues that ports cause)
let me get this clear though - now you are not suggesting that bass tracks be cut at 50hz?
It's interesting - I must have met you at Fabric - when were you there? (and importantly what room did you engineer?) |
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| optik |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
P.s. THX's lower crossover is 80hz ;) |
are you sure you're not talking about the home THX specification? |
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| Vida1003 |
| My problem is that I suck at mixing. I like what I compose but I can't get it to sound right all together. Maybe it's because I have ty equipment but the guy who got me into production always tells me "if you can't mix in you're bedroom with a pair of Sony's and an onboard soundcard then you won't be able to mix in a professional studio with custom monitors and a high end AI." Though I don't know if I believe that. |
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| optik |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vida1003
My problem is that I suck at mixing. I like what I compose but I can't get it to sound right all together. Maybe it's because I have ty equipment but the guy who got me into production always tells me "if you can't mix in you're bedroom with a pair of Sony's and an onboard soundcard then you won't be able to mix in a professional studio with custom monitors and a high end AI." Though I don't know if I believe that. |
you're right not to - it is possible to learn to mix on a setup like you've described but extremely difficult to and, most likely, the results will be poor. just because it's possible doesn't mean you should do it. It's easier to translate to a studio if your equipment matches the studio more closely; but in any case, usually the mix engineer will do the mixing with you if you're in a studio so it doesn't really matter
T |
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| Looney4Clooney |
| quote: | Originally posted by optik
Rann,
I
let me get this clear though - now you are not suggesting that bass tracks be cut at 50hz?
It's interesting - I must have met you at Fabric - when were you there? (and importantly what room did you engineer?) |
Cutting at 50 means nothing . A 6 db cut at 50 would have a resonance to support the main bass region. That is the main issue with cutting. Not what is taken away. Otherwise, Think you are giving it way too much thought. Get rid of the non musical stuff , leave iit alone. Should really need nothing or a little. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by optik
Rann,
I can sum up my response to your detailed reply quite quickly - I have to, stuff to do.
I read the posts, they were mainly based around your subjective experience (and by proxy some people you've worked with)and your qualitative assessment - the issue your argument has it that I'm arguing against your subjective truth with responses to what you've asked me to do - my experience right now doesn't match your memory of experience. You don't need to be a car mechanic to sell a car.
I'm just not sure how relevant the blue sky story is (skywalker), but I am certain it's not an argument - it doesn't matter who made them or why they were made: they are nearfield satellites paired with a specific unported sub designed to run together to produce a flat frequency response across the range, and the quantitative (not qualitative) evidence points to that being the case, as do many reviews by expert sources.
my position is this - I would rather have semi accurate bass reproduction in the 30-50hz range than no bass reproduction in the 30-50hz range, especially if the monitors have ports to extend their bass range (which should be outlawed, or at least those that use them should be aware of the issues that ports cause)
let me get this clear though - now you are not suggesting that bass tracks be cut at 50hz?
It's interesting - I must have met you at Fabric - when were you there? (and importantly what room did you engineer?) |
Not to argue for the sake of it, but nothing in those threads are subjective, whether it be the fact there is no discrete LFE channel to drive the sub meaning you're relying on a made up/abritrary decision from any given speaker manufacturer as to what goes to the sub, or that there's not industry standard for crossovers points with stereo productions (except for THX which is a 5.1 surround standard and obviously not applicable), or the fact that speakers CAN and DO perfectly reproduce a flat frequency response, even down to 30hz, for stereo mixing without ever needing a sub, or that correct sub placement is a nightmare due to time delays and arrival times, standing waves and room nodes.....
To echo what L4C said, and judging by your responses, I'm not sure you actually understand the true physics involved and that's why you think it's all subjective. The funny thing is he actually uses a sub (two actually) and he's probably one of the very few people who has both the knowledge (placement, acoustics, etc) and actually works in film where you need a sub to see how it will sound on the big screen.
The skywalker ranch story is just to demonstrate that those monitors were made from the outset as nearfields with a sub, for surround use. He then relaized they could be used in studios for producing as well. They essentially weren't monitors designed for stereo production from the outset. Why do you think that every speaker manufacturer out there makes pairs full frequency range stereo monitors and then subs which are usually to be paired with their smaller satellite? Because for stereo, the standard, based on both theory and practical use, is not to need a discrete sub.
Again, I said it in that thread, I could go on but there are many downside to using a sub for stereo and virtually no (if any) benefits
to using one, except if you "like" it.
Don't let me stop you though. You've obviously found a way of producing with one and you're getting results and the Bluesky's are great monitors. I love the fact they come with that little digital controller to tweak the crossover points and gains etc.
You worked at Fabric? Small world. I used to help Dave, then when I moved on, used to supply Sanj with all his cables, connectors etc. When did you work there? |
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| echosystm |
| quote: | Originally posted by future_newbie
Optik is the only guy on here who's tracks have been played on asot. Yet you got some theory scientists like RANN who pretend to be some sort of audio gurus, but never posted a single decent work of their own (just like me) but I'm a noob and I know it at least. |
Moronic post.
Audio engineering and being a musician are totally different things. The average musician knows all about acoustics, electronics and so on. If you say dumb things regarding audio engineering, being a good musician doesn't make you any less wrong. Bob Katz hasn't had a single song on ASOT either, but he's still the single most respected person in his field. |
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| cryophonik |
| quote: | Originally posted by echosystm
Moronic post.
Audio engineering and being a musician are totally different things. The average musician knows all about acoustics, electronics and so on. If you say dumb things regarding audio engineering, being a good musician doesn't make you any less wrong. Bob Katz hasn't had a single song on ASOT either, but he's still the single most respected person in his field. |
Definitely. And, not to mention that several other TAs have had our songs played on ASOT and other trance shows, but don't really consider it a resume builder. |
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| chris marsh |
| In my (somewhat) limited experience with subs in a less than ideal, ie too small but reasonably well treated room I would definaltey say your better off without. I had a sub to match My genelec 8030s. Setting it up was a nightmare and it literally created more problems than it solved. Play a sine sweep and youll most likely hear certain frequencies pop out (or duck out) as room nodes are excited, often at intervals of an octave (well in my old room that was case) seems that the lower you go the harder it is to manage the low frequencies. I sold the sub and bought 8040s instead which seemed like a good compromise. |
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