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Creation without knowledge (pg. 2)
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| SherlockCrash |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kthought
That's just it guys, it's a moot point. I made amazingly creative for the last 10 years with mixing. It's all still there though, and I've figured out mixing now, so watch the out.
Crash, even for the most solid trance forum, this is out there. I'd love to hash it out with you, but we should simply diverge and carry on. IMHO, if you can create because you know you can/should/feel obligated, trying to validate this feeling externally will never make sense. Just push your journey ever forward. |
I'm not trying to validate anything, I'm writing this so that maybe someone starting out will think about it and take it into consideration before getting stuck in the technical bit of production, which seems pretty common and will probably affect the possibilities to push the boundaries and be truly unique. We are influenced with what we come in contact with all the time. And if you start your journey by reading tons on forums, watching tutorials and copy other peoples work I think there is a big risk that the "natural" influences, collected earlier in life will be buried beneath this one might say forced influence.
It's just something I've been thinking about. It's the way I choose, for me it was the only way. I don't know if it was right or wrong, I have been struggling with the technical stuff and still do, don't know if I ever will get my stuff to sound as loud and clean as todays standard. I hope I will, but if not I at least have some tunes I've made that I enjoy listening to myself.
Not to say that I stopped listening to music, it's just that I didn't want to dive to deep into other peoples work before I got a steady ground to stand on, that I could call my own. |
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| SherlockCrash |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
Yes, they're heightened moments of inspiration, to use the cliche. It happens more often the more time you spend working. Any artist would agree on this, I think. |
That doesn't necessary have to be true. Sometimes it can be good to take some time off to get some new inspiration. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by SherlockCrash
I'm not trying to validate anything, I'm writing this so that maybe someone starting out will think about it and take it into consideration before getting stuck in the technical bit of production, which seems pretty common and will probably affect the possibilities to push the boundaries and be truly unique. We are influenced with what we come in contact with all the time. And if you start your journey by reading tons on forums, watching tutorials and copy other peoples work I think there is a big risk that the "natural" influences, collected earlier in life will be buried beneath this one might say forced influence.
It's just something I've been thinking about. It's the way I choose, for me it was the only way. I don't know if it was right or wrong, I have been struggling with the technical stuff and still do, don't know if I ever will get my stuff to sound as loud and clean as todays standard. I hope I will, but if not I at least have some tunes I've made that I enjoy listening to myself.
Not to say that I stopped listening to music, it's just that I didn't want to dive to deep into other peoples work before I got a steady ground to stand on, that I could call my own. |
I think we all know what you're getting and it's the old argument of the technical aspects sucking the life out of free flowing creation etc, but honestly, if the technical bit pisses you off so much, or is destroying the creative part, then just get someone else to engineer for you.
I actually used to say similar things as you a long time ago, but I realized that you have to truly know the rules to actually break them. If you don't it's just flailing in the dark. |
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| SherlockCrash |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
I think we all know what you're getting and it's the old argument of the technical aspects sucking the life out of free flowing creation etc, but honestly, if the technical bit pisses you off so much, or is destroying the creative part, then just get someone else to engineer for you.
I actually used to say similar things as you a long time ago, but I realized that you have to truly know the rules to actually break them. If you don't it's just flailing in the dark. |
Im not sure you do. It's not that I'm pissed of at the technical aspects, I just think that some people can benefit from taking this approach. If it's not for you, fine.
Noone can really know. Because if you take one route you don't know the other. If you want to break rules you have to know them. But if you want to make new rules you gotta come up with your own. |
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| AlphaStarred |
| quote: | Originally posted by SherlockCrash
That doesn't necessary have to be true. Sometimes it can be good to take some time off to get some new inspiration. |
No doubt. I said that in regards to "being at one with the machine." If you're not spending enough time working, you won't have this free-flowing process as much. |
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| deegee |
You can't come up with your own, unless you are a genius, without knowing what has already been done.
Knowledge informs creativity. To speak to my own non-musical pursuits, I'm a chef. The more that I know, in a technical sense, about how to approach ingredients--how they react to heat and cold, how to use my knives, how things taste under what circumstances--the more granular I can be with my creativity, and the more able I am to make food that is not only delicious but also explores relatively new ground. Knowing, for example, the exact tempuratures at which egg whites and yolks coagulate (they're different; around 58C for whites and 63C for yolks, depending on various factors) gives me a lot more information about how to use them in dishes, and how to achieve the effects I'm aiming for.
Yeah, outsider art is a thing and it shouldn't be sneezed at. At the same time, the more nuts-and-bolts technical knowledge you have about the thing you do, the more able you are to take creative leaps--because you know how to get where you want to go.
A lot of people who lack technical knowledge (in any discipline) tend to think that knowing more just hampers creativity because you have to think about it all the time. It is not so; the more you know, the more it becomes ingrained into your background. I don't need to think, for example, about the exact pH required for doing encapsulations of various liquids--I just know that below a certain number I'm going to need to add some acid to make it work properly, and that informs my creative process.
Aggressive ignorance about not needing to know rules--or, more accurately, not needing to know how things work--will only hamper you. Yes, it takes time and effort to learn these things, no question, but learning the technical foundations of whatever your creative discipline is can only help you to achieve what you are trying to achieve.
If you're doing something only for yourself, then sure, just go ahead and do whatever and screw what everyone else has learned before you and have the fun. If you want to present what you do to the world, if you want to engage with your creative medium in a deep way, you need to learn how it works. There's really no way around that. Unless, again, you're a genius at what you do--in which case, you're not going to be talking about it here, you're going to be actually doing it and gaining recognition. |
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| AlphaStarred |
| quote: | Originally posted by deegee
the more nuts-and-bolts technical knowledge you have about the thing you do, the more able you are to take creative leaps--because you know how to get where you want to go. |
This pretty much sums it up. |
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| deegee |
Thanks, AlphaStarred.
It's like, say, playing any sport. Sure, some people are going to walk onto a sportsball court and have an instinctive knowledge and that's great.
The vast majority need to drill and drill and drill their skills to the point where they become instinctive--and that's where you get Jordan, for example. Naturally talented, and driven to continually improve his skills, and however many years later it is still a joy to look back and watch him in his prime because you're seeing pure creativity--that is, selecting from all the options available, without thinking about it, to get from A to B.
Learning how to mixdown (which I SUCK at) is no different. Some people have instinctive ears and that's great. Pretty much everyone else has to learn first. And absolutely EVERYONE benefits from learning more. |
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| Kthought |
| quote: | Originally posted by deegee
And absolutely EVERYONE benefits from learning more. |
This is true, in my case. My mixes are finally putting smiles on peoples faces. but it took me 8 ing years of backing off creativity, skipping arrangement details, abandoning reason(mistake), keeping channel count as low as possible, keeping everything routing friendly, so that I don't have an impossible mixdown. Trance especially, the mix is everything! Learning the technical aspects of mixing is irreplaceable; of course i wouldn't have it any other way now, but there was a thread of creative drive that ing vanished the minute I started to learn technical mixing. I'm far too proud to use an outside engineer -to a fault-. This is my factual personal experience. |
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| deegee |
| And now you don't have to think so hard about how to achieve the mixdown effect you want. |
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| Looney4Clooney |
pushing a button. Wiping your ass. Knowledge. IF you think you don't create with a whole suitcase of biases rigid paradigms that one would call knowledge, you are just a little lacking in insight. I'm sure if we connected the dots, well go from the simplest task you do with conscious intent. That requires knowledge.
This is a silly argument framed with ridiculous terms that can't be quantified. Be more specific. |
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| SherlockCrash |
I realise now that the OP is misleading. What I've been talking about lately has actually nothing to do with the video or OP, it was a spin off from kthoughts post. So sorry if that confused any of you.
I think I can make it clear this way. degee, your Jordan example. He probably didn't start with an obsession with tactics and technique. My guess is that he started playing ball, for fun with he's mates. It probably took several years before he started to really dive into the technical aspects. He watched a lot of basket, and was influenced by the moves he saw. He learned those he wanted to learn, and when everything came together it was in a new way. He learned by doing, and experimentation.
This is a much better way of learning, than if he would have found an idol, and tried to copy him completely. He would then have became a copy, instead of something unique.
So what I say is, don't copy anyone particular. Find different things you like in different tunes and even genres. This is obvious to a lot of people. But not to everyone it seems.
I hope that makes it clear. |
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