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?? about new system at Webster
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| CarS |
"The Grand Ballroom has officially been upgraded with the best sound system on the planet. If you are sound nerds like us, you will appreciate the L’Acoustics KARA PA, complete with DiGiCo SD10 audio consoles and complete L’Acoustics Monitor and Side Fill Package. A team of highly trained riggers, engineers, and sound scientists have been installing and tuning her for weeks! ...(Not to mention – there are no more speaker stacks on the floor...." dance!"
just curious about that system, anyone know anything about it?
venue, yes I know.... |
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| djnoonstar |
"best sound system on the planet"?
Not Funktion 1?
Besides that, the best sound I ever heard came out of the KV2 Audio at the last cityfox. It was pristine! |
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| ucforange |
| quote: | Originally posted by djnoonstar
"best sound system on the planet"?
Not Funktion 1?
Besides that, the best sound I ever heard came out of the KV2 Audio at the last cityfox. It was pristine! |
Funktion 1 is kinda overrated to me.
I actually think EAW's Avalon series sounds better...same with Dynacord. Just like anything else there's all sorts of options and sometimes the most popular brand isn't the best. |
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| CarS |
no matter what, those marketing phrases are always mostly BS.
I don't even notice that much anymore.
was just wondering if anyone knows anything about the system, never heard of it before.
Supposedly they spent 1 million on it, fwiw.
As to good sound:
there's always a trade-off, and choices have to be made.
If anything bugs me really, it's clipping / distortion.
bad highs, muddy sound, bloated bass, or an attenuation somewhere in the range, is one thing, but distortion, the kind that's caused by inadequate electronics overdriving the speakers, that I hate.
It sounds like crap, and is fatiguing to boot.
A decent system IMO should not permit the user, DJ, musician, etc to clip or distort it at anything that would be considered reasonable.
We're not talking about someone trying to pump 135db into a room of course.
At T5 on Wed, had a good example of that, from Tycho's guitar feed. terrible.
You could tell the sound engineer had took things back a bit to prevent.
That's a crappy system, never noticed there before.
That's why I do appreciate the installation at Output, can only remember one occasion, think Sasha, where I heard some bad clipping....
st my 0.02 |
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| Liquified |
www.puregroovesystems.com
"Every once in a while something comes along that takes your breath away. I had the pleasure of playing on a Pure Groove Sound System in the summer of last year and when I turned up to sound check, I thought there was no way the 4 speaker cabinets installed would be enough to fill the room for 1500 people let alone deliver a bone shaking sound of pure clarity that seemed to wrap itself around the crowd on the dancefloor. This is a system DJ`s will want to play on and clubbers will want to dance to."
- John Digweed, DJ and producer
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| lounger540 |
| I thought the system at last city fox was kind of meh. Think output has the best system, albeit too loud at times. Panther room t hough. whoa :clown: |
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| James Gill |
From an audio engineering standpoint, the company/brand name of large commercial sound systems for clubs and live sound events isn't so much the deciding factor as: 1.) who installed it. 2. how it's been custom modified for the space and 3.) how the space is treated.
Prime example being those old Gary Stewart Audio Systems we all used to love. Gary literally mixed and matched most of his speakers with JBL drivers, the likes of which are not abhorrently expensive and you can find and buy yourself online pretty easily, and I believe (but would need some confirmation) used Electrovoice tweeters for the highs and mid-high range.
Such a setup is not exotic nor is it impossible to build for DIYers, but the way that Gary built and configured them based on his expertise, experience, and personal talents is what made them so special and amazing to listen to.
Similarly, we can all agree Funktion 1 makes some absolutely amazing speakers, but if you take Cielo's setup for example, the gents who installed that (who also did Beta in Denver), also built and customized that entire room around making that sound system sound good for the space. The walls (with all the LED effects that blink on and off in them) all have acoustic absorption in them to cut out reverb and standing frequencies so the center dancefloor sounds so clean. The floor (like many modern clubs) is actually floated off the concrete foundation so that low frequencies resonances won't occur and it doesn't sound like one giant earthquake.
I thought Citifox's setup last time was excellent given the space they had: imagine having to tune that room for a one-time only event and to achieve that kind of clean sound!
So, as our good old friend Armin once put it, my experience in live sound tends to support his same philosophy as with production: "If you're cooking in the kitchen, you've got to use the right blend of ingredients." With most aspects of audio, I tend to believe it's much less the ingredients you've got and much more the skill of the chef :) |
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| BradMiller |
^^^^
Good post! |
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| CarS |
| quote: | | Originally posted by James Gill |
nice comment!
| quote: | | ...reverb and standing frequencies ... |
next time you're at Output, hang out under the right balcony at it's back, right next to, and outside of, the back right speaker (looking towards the deck).
how not to do that in terms of room treatment.
Speaking of set-up people, I've talked to the guy who did the work at Output a couple of times, and he'd like to do more work there, but apparently, they don't like him much there, so he gets less than optimal access (no idea why)
| quote: | | ...and to achieve that kind of clean sound! |
In a similar way, I'd mention the work done by the crew Aurora Halal got to put up the sound at SR.
Given the limits of hosting an event of that size and reasonable price, they did a really nice job.
Question for you:
Do these systems tend to use DSP-based room correction systems?
Plus they mostly seem horn based: mainly cost driven cause less amp power is needed?
I'd love to see Avantgarde do a room, but that's prob. unaffordable...:) |
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| James Gill |
| quote: | Originally posted by CarS
Question for you:
Do these systems tend to use DSP-based room correction systems?
Plus they mostly seem horn based: mainly cost driven cause less amp power is needed? |
As I've not been able to check completely "under the hood" on a lot of these systems, I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly what each place was using, and I might also add that Live Sound is not my expertise, my background is in Studio Engineering, so often my knowledge of this stuff comes from my Live counterparts whom I've had the chance to chat with in the clubs and at networking events, but at that level of sound reinforcement, it's safe to assume that in a lot of cases, there are multiple levels of both DSP and even analog controls that are being utilized to achieve the room sounds we hear.
DSP Room Correction is in it of itself a very standard tool for Live PA these days (the Driverack PA from DBX got me through many a gig back in my mobile DJing and Roadie days), and these systems are all very cutting edge so the kind of tools they are using nowadays I'm assuming utilize some more complex chain of devices to configure the sound that in many cases is the unique customization of the installer based on their own expertise and forward-thinking methods for achieving certain sound.
It's safe to say, therefore, there is definitely some DSP going on in nearly all the places you hear, but it's much more intricate than simply setting up a DBX for example and choosing a room template. These are systems that are all hand tweaked by career experts.
I can tell you, that surprisingly, Gary Stewart systems like the ones in Love and District 36, had NO DSP: they were all analog! My good friend Ruben Rivera, who was the live sound engineer at Love, District 36, and Sullivan Room for a short while, gave me some great insight into his process and he was a pure traditionalist in every respect.
I might also add that this is also one of the reasons why people will often comment on a sound system "not sounding like it used to back in the day." That's because all of these systems need to be tweaked almost constantly to maintain the kind of sound that can be considered pristine and mind-blowing. You move one couch, set up a new disco ball, or change around the DJ booth and everything has to be retouched and calibrated. Addtionally, the vibrations from subwoofers over time cause things to come loose and get messed around, so these systems have to be checked all the time, and if a club isn't investing in a professional acoustician coming in on a regular basis (which is very costly too might I add), over time the system quality will start to deteriorate.
FINALLY (sorry if I get carried away here: sound is pretty much what I do all day! LOL), as per your question for horn-based systems. There are no systems I am aware of that could only use horn drivers and achieve the kind of low end you'd expect from a nightclub sound system. I think what you are observing is actually only the visible part of the sound system you are seeing: the speakers for example you see on the rafters and up in the top of the ceilings in clubs are NOT responsible for the the low end and low mid frequencies of the sound system. They are purely there for the highs and high-mid frequencies, and that is why they are pointed at you because those frequencies are directional. Low end frequencies and low-mid frequencies on the other hand are non directional, and a lot of that thick bass you perceive also relies on resonance from the floor for it's power (and additionally physical resistance in order for the woofers to function properly).
Thus, that is why it is possible to hide subwoofers or blend them in to the architecture of the club, because they need to be based on the ground first and foremost, and because their placement is much less reliant on their direction relative to the audience. A lot of what you don't see is where the sound comes from in these bigger places, because the designers were able to put them in locations that don't interfere with dancing space yet provide the kind of power to convey the sound. That's also why I love sound systems that sound awesome but you never really see any of their components: the people who put them together are using room tricks and design to get everything sounding good as opposed to just pointing a speaker at somebody.
No matter what to get big sound you need a lot of amp power. To get true bass you will need some pretty big woofers, and that will draw a ton of wattage. I'm sure cost effectiveness is always relevant as with any business expense, but it's safe to say all the places that you love the sound of spent A TON of money to get it that way. The speakers, amps, and signal processing was probably far secondary in cost compared to the room construction fees, architecture costs, engineering costs, wiring/electrician bills (because you have to custom wire those places to allow for commercial power voltage as opposed to just a regular building) etc. etc.
Even in my world of the recording studios, unless you bought a famous vintage console and a bunch of gear where there are only 5 left in the world kinda thing, I can tell you personally that the biggest costs we've always had were building the damn things to sound good lol. |
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| Serial Killer |
| quote: | Originally posted by James Gill
So, as our good old friend Armin once put it, my experience in live sound tends to support his same philosophy as with production: "If you're cooking in the kitchen, you've got to use the right blend of ingredients." With most aspects of audio, I tend to believe it's much less the ingredients you've got and much more the skill of the chef :) |
Armin is the MAN !!! |
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