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Bowling for Columbine, the movie (pg. 6)
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Neo nEro
While they might be conservative in nature, they are not lying like moore. |
Hehe. What do you consider "lying"? Perhaps bending the truth just a little bit to fit their particular given agendas, which is also fully supported and endorsed by their parent companies? Shall we go into examples, or do you get my drift? |
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| Neo nEro |
| please go into examples |
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| Cyrus King |
Mr. Howell is not even an acredited Star witer. My cousin gets his articles published in the Star too, even though he owns a computer company. Please dont post articles from the commentary section.... thats not acredited.
Plus, that stupid link you posted is rehashed in this aricle. There are no credible websites there except the PBS one,... others are simply just personal websites.
OPINIONjournal...... Occrider.... i didnt know an opinion diary was a COLD HARD FACT :rolleyes:
Stop contradicting yourself
Again, this link is not going to convince me. Having a "gay stuff" section tells me there is some personal bias thought here. Also, take a look at the main page.... http://www.whatever-dude.com/
For the love of god, this is worse then the enquirer.
For someone to have Al Shahaf as their avatar while trying to preach "cold hard facts" by utilizing pathetic websites, only reinforces my belief even stronger.
Try smarter next time Occrider.;) |
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| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by TuanAnh213
its garnered all the attention because its controversial
that Farenheit 911 seems interesting...i'd like to know what Dubya was up to before he came tumbling into the white house |
Its controversial because people in your nation have lit the bulb thats been screwed in their head long time ago, only now.
Also, I forgot to mention something else about the new film he's making called Farenheit 911. Not only does it reveal and analyze the Bush family's business ventures, but also the ties that hwere made with the Bin Laden family over the years.
I cant wait!:D |
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Neo nEro
please go into examples |
Okay. Truthfully though, to better illustrate my point, it would have been better for me to say that instead of "lying" or "bending the truth", Fox News and other Conservative networks tend to do a better job leaving out pertinent information that the public should be made aware. Such as:
1. The connections between the contracts given to Halliburton and Bechtel (including ties with Rumsfield, the looking the other way when Hussein gased the Kurds over a desire to build the Aqaba pipeline in the 1980's under the Reagan Admin.), both having extremely close ties to our current Administration, without any competing offers from other companies. A probe is being sought into our Congress on the matter, yet Fox seemingly reports nothing on the matter.
2. As mentioned previously, the connections between Bush apppointed FCC chairman, Michael Powell (father Colin Powell), and the efforts of the major news and media organizations to deregulate the current law that states that no broadcaster can reach more than 35% of the national audience, as well as the strict limits on how many radio and TV stations one company can own in any market. Of course, the biggest TV and radio stations owned would stand to benefit from this, but guess who owns more on the market at the moment? Yep, Murdock's News Corporation (Fox).
3. Or how about Evangelical charities with an overt hostility to Islam being lined up to prepare food and water to the Iraqis? One charity, Samaritan's Purse, is run by Franklin Graham, son of Evangelist Billy Graham, who declared after the 9/11 attacks that Islam was "a very evil and wicked religion"? Also part of the Southern Babtists Convention, whose former president once described the Prophet Mohammed as "a demon-possessed paedophile". On their food packages will be a lovely Bible verse in Arabic that states, "grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ." Franklin Graham is a close friend of Bush Jr., and participated in this year's Good Friday prayer service at the Pentagon, angering a good portion of officials in the Defense Dept. Kinda gave the wrong message, don't you think? Frank's an idiot, angering Norman Schwarzkopf in 1991 by delivering thousands of Arabic-language New Testaments to Saudi Arabia in defiance of Saudi Law and the US-Saudi military alliance. The list goes on and on about this guy. Think this would ever get reported on Fox?
4. Or how about the U.S. British Government claiming that the Iraqi regime sought uranium feed material from the government of Niger in west Africa? You know, the letters that were later described by the International Atomic Energy Agency as crude forgeries? Did Fox ever commentate on that?
5. Or the unmanned vehicles that were reported to be able to fly over 500 miles, but could only fly at most 5-6 miles on a non-windy day? Of course, 500 miles was reported on Fox, but the last part was never revealed. Wonder why?
6. But more specifically and more recently, I could mention what has transcribed on Fox, such as the supposed documents that link Bin Laden to Osama. Inigo Gilmore from the London Daily Telegraph (already mentioned being very right-slanted) was the only reporter allowed into Iraq's Mukhabarat intelligence headquarters, and mysteriously found all these documents that proved the links. Strange that he mentioned the CIA must have missed these documents (yeah, right). I'll let Wayne Madsen continue with this statement:
"It is amazing that the U.S. military would be so open about letting favored journalists walk freely about the Mukhabarat building when the Pentagon has clamped tight security on the Iraqi Oil Ministry. The reason for this is obvious. While the Mukhabarat building can be salted with phony intelligence documents, the Oil Ministry is likely rife with documents showing the links between Saddam Hussein and Dick Cheney's old firm, Halliburton. The company signed more than $73 million in contracts with Saddam's government when Cheney was its chief executive officer. The contracts, negotiated with two Halliburton subsidiaries—Dresser-Rand and Ingersoll Dresser Pump Co.—were part of the UN oil-for-food program, ironically the same program which figures prominently in the charges against Galloway. But unlike the charges against Galloway, the reports about Cheney's links to Saddam Hussein's oil industry originated with relatively more mainstream media sources, including ABC News, The Washington Post, and The Texas Observer."
He also states:
"The U.S. has been quite active in inviting Telegraph reporters into the Iraqi intelligence headquarters. Other documents "found" by the paper's reporters "revealed" Russian intelligence had passed intercepts of Tony Blair's phone conversations to Iraqi intelligence, that German intelligence offered to assist Iraqi intelligence in the lead up to the war, that France provided Iraq with the contents of US-French diplomatic exchanges, and that anti-war and anti-Bush Labor Party Member of Parliament George Galloway had solicited hundreds of thousands of dollars from Iraq, which were skimmed from the country's oil-for-food program.
Galloway immediately smelled the rat of a disinformation campaign when he responded to the Telegraph about the "found" document. "Maybe it's the product of the same forgers who forged so many other things in this whole Iraq picture . . . It would not be the Iraqi regime that was forging it. It would be people like you [Telegraph journalists] and the Government whose policies you have supported," Galloway said."
But here's the capper:
"It was not long before the Iraqi-al Qaeda "smoking gun" document was reported around the world. America's right-wing propaganda channel, Fox News, featured the "found" document on its lead story on its Fox Sunday News program. Fox anchorman Tony Snow asked the ethically-tainted Iraqi National Congress leader Ahmed Chalabi about the document. Chalabi responded, saying the document provided enough information that Saddam Hussein was knowledgeable about the September 11 attacks on the United States, a canard that has been rejected by intelligence agencies around the world. However, for those who forged or doctored the document it was mission accomplished.
The "smoking gun" document on Galloway was further played up on Fox News Sunday. William Kristol, an ally of Perle and a dean of the neo-conservatives, and Fox's Brit Hume, a right-wing ideologue who masquerades as a reporter, said the documents implicating Galloway in accepting money from Saddam Hussein was the "tip of the iceberg." They then suggested that French President Jacques Chirac, other Western politicians, and Arab journalists working for such networks as Al Jazeera, would soon be "outed" by further Iraqi intelligence documents.For good mesaure, Fox also announced that Galloway may have given classified satellite imagery to al Qaeda. As is so often the case, the Fox News panelists provided no evidence for their slanderous claims."
7. Or even personally, on a note of music, it truly pissed me off the way Fox portrayed actors and especially musicians who felt it wrong to go to war. Not that I'm a fan of the Dixie Chicks, but broadcasters like Hannity and Bill O'Reilly calling for a massive burning and boycotting of Dixie Chick CDs because of one singer speaking out against having troops over in Iraq, which have resulting in "unpatriotic" labeling and death threats. Sound a little like Nazi Germany to me. Of course they had to show these hate rallies, where masses of CDs were either thrown in a bonfire or ran over by construction machinery. And then there's Madonna, who under pressure decided to pull her latest video in which at the end shows her throwing a grenade to Bush, who uses it as a lighter for his cigar. O'Reilly effectively trashed this imagery (oh how terrible!), once again labeling her as unpatriotic for speaking out against the war. As Madonna stated, it really amazes me for us to put our troops' lives on the line to supposedly support democracy in another country, when we show so very little over here when someone speaks out against the government's actions. Acts like this are nothing shy of embarrassing, and extremely vile in terms of propaganda abuse.
These are a few examples, and I'm sorry it was long-winded. This probably should have been saved for the Political Debate thread. Sorry about that. But back to my original point: Michael Moore is slanted. But to me, he is a refreshing contrast to the neo-Conservative media that has a tendency to misconstrue and deliberately leave out vital information to fit its own current conservative agenda. So take it all with a grain of salt. |
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| DaveSaenz |
| quote: | Originally posted by Renegade
Eh? There's been a school shooting in Australia?
Replace the word "crocs" with "each other" and the word "fosters" with "any beer but fosters" (fosters tastes like cat-urine, no-one in Australia drinks it) and you're on the right track. :p |
Sorry. Crossbow shooting. |
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| DaveSaenz |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
OPINIONjournal...... Occrider.... i didnt know an opinion diary was a COLD HARD FACT :rolleyes:
Stop contradicting yourself
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What do you think "Columbine" is?? It's an opinion diary (editorial) in movie format...
Anyone can skew facts to support their point...
I knew it all along...Cyrus King is really Moore...:stongue: |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
Mr. Howell is not even an acredited Star witer. My cousin gets his articles published in the Star too, even though he owns a computer company. Please dont post articles from the commentary section.... thats not acredited.
Plus, that stupid link you posted is rehashed in this aricle. There are no credible websites there except the PBS one,... others are simply just personal websites.
OPINIONjournal...... Occrider.... i didnt know an opinion diary was a COLD HARD FACT :rolleyes:
Stop contradicting yourself
Again, this link is not going to convince me. Having a "gay stuff" section tells me there is some personal bias thought here. Also, take a look at the main page.... http://www.whatever-dude.com/
For the love of god, this is worse then the enquirer.
For someone to have Al Shahaf as their avatar while trying to preach "cold hard facts" by utilizing pathetic websites, only reinforces my belief even stronger.
Try smarter next time Occrider.;) |
Hmmmm ... why do you think I have him as my avatar? Perhaps because it is a JOKE????? You know ... HUMOR???? If your best argument against me is that my avatar is Sahaf (praise him) then you have a loonngg way to go. At any rate, I never claimed anything about the links I posted, I was merely trying to provide more coverage on the issue since you were critiszing my posting of the same article. However, I stand by my original link of which you still haven't addressed any of the issues at hand.
By COLD HARD FACTS I was referring to my original posting. The site all too well documents WHERE Moore got his material, HOW he peiced it together, and even included screen shots to illustrate its point! Additionally it does anlaysis of the statistics Moore provides and breaks it down so we can actually see how Moore got his numbers. So would you care to comment on that??? I've clicked on the links provided by the site and they all properly reference valid sources.
Moore's a great entertainer! I don't doubt that ... stop believing every word that comes out of his mouth though.
And I try smarter every time :) |
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| InsomnEac |
| quote: | Originally posted by mndeg
oh look another american thats pro american
i said ALL because ive yet to see an american thats not pro america |
i think that's kind of irrelevant, obviously most people will be somewhat biased towards their own country. what really matters is being well-informed and open-minded... which some americans on this board are. |
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| Z1D |
Germany, 381 gun murders.
France, 255 gun murders.
Canada, 165 gun murders.
UK, 68 gun murders.
Australia, 65 gun murders.
Japan, 39 gun murders.
U.S., 11,127 gun murders. (doesn't include police shootings)
These are according to bowling for columbine. Im not 100% positive of the accuracy of these stats, but i highly doubt moore would bother outright lying about statistics.
I forget how many people live in japan.. 100 million? 150 million?
US is close to 300 million. You do the math, but Japan clearly has a cultural difference that leads to a FAR lower gun related murder rate. (maybe cuz they all kill with samurai swords and throwing stars instead :haha: just kidding) |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Z1D
Germany, 381 gun murders.
France, 255 gun murders.
Canada, 165 gun murders.
UK, 68 gun murders.
Australia, 65 gun murders.
Japan, 39 gun murders.
U.S., 11,127 gun murders. (doesn't include police shootings)
These are according to bowling for columbine. Im not 100% positive of the accuracy of these stats, but i highly doubt moore would bother outright lying about statistics.
I forget how many people live in japan.. 100 million? 150 million?
US is close to 300 million. You do the math, but Japan clearly has a cultural difference that leads to a FAR lower gun related murder rate. (maybe cuz they all kill with samurai swords and throwing stars instead :haha: just kidding) |
| quote: |
US: Bowling says 11,127. FBI figures put it a lot lower. They report gun homicides were 8,719 in 2001, 8,661 in 2000, 8,480 in 1999. (2001 UCR, p. 23).
After an email tip, I finally found a way to compute 11,127. Ignore the FBI, use Nat'l Center for Health Statistics figures. These are based on doctors' death certificates rather than police investigation, and give figures about 2,000 higher than FBI.
Then -- to their gun homicide figures, add the figure for legally-justified homicides: self-defense and police use against criminals. Presto, you have exactly Moore's 11,127. I can see no other way for him to get it.
Since Moore appears to use police figures for the other countries, it's hardly a valid comparison. More to the point, it's misleading since it includes self-defense and police: when we talk of a gun homicide problem we hardly have in mind a woman defending against a rapist, or a cop taking out an armed robber.
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And with regards to the population factor:
| quote: |
There are two reasons Moore may be reluctant to talk numbers rather than rates or probabilities.
First, the other countries he compares have a smaller (sometimes a much smaller) population) than the US. The US has a population of about 285 million: Canada about 31 million, Australia 19 million, Germany 81 million. For example, in 2000-2001 Australia reported 381 homicides among its 19 million people. Source. If we were to apply its rate to the US population, that'd work out to 5,715 murders. (The above source puts a peculiar spin on this data, by the way. Although reporting a massive 20% jump in murders, and a 100% increase in intra-family killings, it is headlined that "In 2001-2002 there was a 25 per cent decrease in the use of firearms to commit homicide." Great: what it really means is that gun homicides fell slightly, but were more than offset by increases in all other means of murder. The above figure of 381 is, by the way, total homicides rather than gun homicides.... it's of no benefit to get killed with a knife or club, either.)
Second, the minute you get into rates it starts to become apparent that gun homicides are a very low probability event wherever you are. Phrased otherwise, the odds are enormously in favor of you or I dying of heart attack, stroke, or cancer, no matter what country we live in.
Here's the 1999 Center for Disease Control statistics (which is what Bowling uses) for the US:
Deaths from heart attack &
other cardiovascular failure: ........ 892,558
Deaths from cancer: ................... 549,838
Deaths from flu & pneumonia: .... 67,730
Deaths from kidney failure: ......... 35,525
Deaths from diabetes: .................. 68,399
Deaths from alcohol ingestion .....19,171
Deaths from gun homicides: ....... 10,217 (includes self-defense and police killings of criminals)
Deaths from gun accidents .............. 824 (not a typo)
Of the 2.39 million US deaths that year, gun homicides comprised 0.4%.
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| Still, even if Moore increased the number of homicides by two times, the US still has much more homicides than all the other countries. And the fact that only 0.4% of the deaths are caused by gun homicides is totally irrelevant. Infact, it means that you have a 0.4% chance of someone shooting you, which is pretty much. |
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