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US questions the "morality" of teens attending nudist camps (pg. 5)
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| JohnSmith |
| what the hell is a pearl necklace? Google image search returned nothing. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vesa
OK, to sum up all I've posted:
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- ing 14-15 year olds is not pedophilia: they have a largely mature fertile body capable of bearing children; their mental development is automatically not a problem because their courtship instinct makes sure they don't have sex before they are ready
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Sure it is ... you're screwing an immature minor. Who cares if their body is mature or not ... like I said before, it would be something similar to screwing a mentally handicapped girl. Are you saying that a mentally handicapped girl's instincts (not mental capacity) ensures that they can ably make the proper decisions about sex?? Second of all, I can assure you that it would be far easier to coerce a 14 or 15 year old into having sex than say a fully mature 18 year old. Personally I've heard of a lot of cases of sexual abuse of 14 or 15 year olds that go unpunished until years later when these girls finally come forward. I rarely hear of many cases of mature woman not reporting rapes. Furthermore, how many instances of teen pregnanices do you hear of where hte girl is happy with the pregnancy?? Most wish they weren't so young, naieve, and stupid to be having unprotected sex or sex in general at such an early age. To simply do away with laws protecting minors while they are maturing because they have "instinct" seems a bit foolhardy to me.
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- there is no such thing as "you are taking advantage of her"; sex can only naturally happen if she especially wants the guy; and if she especially wants a guy, he can't be taking advantage of her, right? if you are referring to sex which happens without noble courtship, it is another matter which I regard as an abnormality
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I'm 23, i have a decent job, I can afford relatively nice things ... if I approach a 14 year old girl and woe her with gifts, a car, etc. and follow the normal courtship procedures ... that's ok? Doesn't that seem a bit sick to anybody else? She's young, she's immature, she's not dealing with somebody her age with her relative experience in relationships and sex. She's IMMATURE! If my daughter brought home a 20 year old guy when she was 14 I'd murder him there on the spot.
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- 14-15 year olds never look like 24-year olds; nature made it like this so that we know who is older and has a bigger chance of dying; and we would also get the diseases from our older partners and die, so that our children will be left orphans and die too -> nature made sure that sex with a 24-year old is more abnormal than sex with 14-15 year olds |
Sex with a 24 year old is abnormal??? Goddamn you're making me feel old. But personally I think sex with a 14 or 15 year old would wierd me out more than sex with a 24 year old! Jesus I would feel like I was sleeping with a baby. But at any rate, there are DEFINETELY chicks who are 15 or 16 that definetely look like they are 19-21. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vesa
occrider, I've read pedophilia is a sickness with distinct symptoms, and it's about children (up to 13), not about immature minors (up to 16). Needless to say, these ages depend on individual development.
I think it's important to keep strict terminology here because otherwise the camp guards protect the girls from the wrong group of baddies. All pedophiles are having a field day at the nearest normal camp for 10-12-year olds while you are guarding the 14-year nudists from them.
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Ok perhaps I am mixing terminology into generalizations. I tend to view the strict pedophiles as being in the same camp with sexual deviants which may not be entirely fair. However my views, are not designed to revolve around protecting pedophiles alone, but to protect immature, developing girls from sexual deviants as well. Should 14 year olds still receive protection from sexual deviants despite the fact that they are not threatened by pedophelia (in the strictest of terms)? Personally, I think yes ... they are still entiteld to a certain measure of protection ************ of their sexual maturity.
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Nature built men to be attracted to full-grown fertility indicators. Nature is the best optimizer, so it doesn't grow the fertility indicators before the girls are ready for noble courtship.
The age of consent here in Finland is 16 (was planned to be dropped to 15), and that is inevitably a conservative estimate to protect the most innocent, and slowly-developing girls. Anyway, courtship is only possible if the girl has sufficient sexual confidence, and courtship includes multiple tests where the girl can stop it if she's not absolutely sure.
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I'm not arguing about nature's optimized age to engage in sexual intercourse. With that argument I agree with you. Nature tends to gravitate towards the most efficient forms of reproduction. My argument however is that we as human beings have transceneded beyond mere emotions and instinctual behaviour. We have reached the point where mental intellect and development have achieved just as much importance in sexual relations despite the fact that our bodies have yet to catch up. Courtship is possible ************ of a girl's sexual confidence or experience. Can you tell me with an absolutely straight face, that I don't stand a greater chance of manipulating a mentally underdeveloped teen into having sex as opposed to a fully mature 22 year old? I can think of many instances again where young girls are unsure of whether to have sex or not but are ultimately pressured into having sex through societal pressure or pressure from the opposite sex. The "courtship" method is hardly as infallible as you make it out to be.
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Mentally handicapped girls do not belong to the same group as immature minors, but to the same group as children because they can't actively take courtship steps, and thus would never naturally end up having sex with a man. Besides, they couldn't care for the baby, so sex would be unnatural even independent of the issue of whether sex could mentally hurt them. In contrast, even an immature minor might be able to take courtship steps if Eros Ramazzotti or the local king of the school courted them.
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Mentally handicapped woman do not feel the instictual urge to bear children nor care for them as normal people do? They cannot engage in the same method of attraction the opposite sex for the need to reproduce? It's somewhat odd that you would argue from the standpoint of genetics and animal instinct yo validate one point of view and then argue mental capactiy as a qualifier for sexual capability from another standpoint. If a mentally handicapped woman COULD care for a baby, does that provide justification to manipulate her into arriving at the decsion to have a baby?
I'm too drunk to continue with my line of thought now ... will make extra time to argue the rest of your statements over the weekend though :). I must say though vesa ... when it comes to the nitty gritty 4-6 paragraph arguments it typically is only you and me, and a few others that are left. It's a pleasure trying to prove you worng ;)
Edit: and you havent brought neo-conservatives into the argument yet! mad props! |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vesa
Putting an 11-year old child into a sexual context (like watching a movie with hardcore sex) would be totally sick. |
I was about 5 years old when I looked at my dad's hardcore porn magazines, and I saw my first hardcore porn movie at about 9. The video rent shops here never ask you for your age. :)
And that experience didn't result in any serious disorders, I am only mildly sexually obsessed.
| quote: | Originally posted by Occrider
If my daughter brought home a 20 year old guy when she was 14 I'd murder him there on the spot.
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Aren't you overreacting a bit? I mean, it's not that great age difference, you know. I'd understand it if the guy would be 25+, but a 20 year old isn't that bad. |
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| Shakka |
Vesa, I love your hard-core scientific approach to matters--you do a good job of separating morality and emotion from nature. You are indeed one of the hardest of hard-core Darwinists that I've enountered--it may get you arrested one day!
I suppose that if you view humans as nothing more than hairless monkeys your theories have merit. I tend to view humans on a higher tier due to our sentient nature and ability to manipulate thoughts, emotions, ideas, and information; but at the core I'm still more drawn to science. All of that theory sounds good in a textbook, but in practice it doesn't work like that at all. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vesa
occrider: Good points you are making. My viewpoint is probably based too much on my own behavior. I can only imagine men and women meeting honorably in a static environment where the woman chooses the man as a partner candidate (with flirting, body language etc).
Too young women and mentally handicapped women couldn't go through such elaborate mating rituals. Only women with a sufficient level of maturity could go through the long string of rituals because they are so complex and require an adult's wit. Like I said, courtship is nature's mechanism to ensure that the girl (and man) is mature, so Darwinistic attitude to sexuality is not based on bodily maturity only, but just as much on the person's mental capabilities.
But human behaviour is in reality more dynamic, and guys are by nature pushy, so that does indeed raise up the possibility that men could easily manipulate very young women into having sex. To prevent that, I trust on a man's honor and common sense to distinguish between manipulation and slow mutual buildup of intimacy. Sadly, men without honor and common sense do not care whether the girl is making active steps to get to know them. They only see what they want themselves, and that's why I suspect that they are not only abusing girls, but adult women in a similar manner, too. I agree that girls and women must be carefully protected from such men.
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Ok if you're going to condition your argument this way then I would agree with you. If males and females follow proper courtship procedures such that the female is BOTH mentally and physically mature (I don't think both occurr concurrentely at the same time in every instance) then I would see nothing wrong with males and females having sexual relations. However, much like you stated, in life few play by the rules and abuse and manipulation would likely result in such a scenario. When it comes to protecting children, laws must err on the side of caution.
Tito: Nope I'd shoot the bastard. A) Why is a 20 year old hanging around crowds of adolescent teen girls? She's barely in high school and he's graduated for 2 years already. B) They are likely nowhere near each other when it comes to relationship experience/mental maturity, can this guy not find a girl that is relatively close to his age bracket? If so, why does he feel the need to maintain a relationship with a maturing, adolescent girl? and C) A and B lead me to conclude that he is most likely a sick predator. I wouldn't care if an 80 year old guy was going out with an 18 year old ... even a 17 year old. However, the 16 and younger age bracket is a time when much development and life experience is learned, and as such it doesn't need to be contaminated by the wolfs so to speak. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
Maturity isn't a step function in a sense when you reach 17 yo you suddenly become mature. And even if it was so, not all people mature at the same time. Infact, girls gain their maximum maturity faster than guys. So it's not impossible for an immature 20 year old guy and a mature 14 year old girl to be pretty close regarding their maturity. More close than the 18/80 relationship anyway.
code:
maturity
^
| _------ male maturity
| /
| _--/------ female maturity
| / /
| / /
| / /
| / /
|_-/_-/
|------------------>time [years]
10 20 30
As you can see from the graph, it is possible for 14/20 relationship to be a normal one. |
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| Shakka |
| That's a pretty scientific chart! Would've taken me 10 minutes to construct such a masterpiece!;) |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
That's a pretty scientific chart! Would've taken me 10 minutes to construct such a masterpiece!;) |
I know. I am so proud of myself now for constructing it. :gsmile: |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Maturity isn't a step function in a sense when you reach 17 yo you suddenly become mature. And even if it was so, not all people mature at the same time. Infact, girls gain their maximum maturity faster than guys. So it's not impossible for an immature 20 year old guy and a mature 14 year old girl to be pretty close regarding their maturity. More close than the 18/80 relationship anyway.
code:
maturity
^
| _------ male maturity
| /
| _--/------ female maturity
| / /
| / /
| / /
| / /
|_-/_-/
|------------------>time [years]
10 20 30
As you can see from the graph, it is possible for 14/20 relationship to be a normal one. |
Well I agree, it is a beautiful chart :). Remember our discussions before about age restrictions? I know that people mature at different ages but the laws are designed to protect those who mature later than others. Besides even goign by your graph, the 20 year old male is still significantly more mature than the 14 year old girl. Plus this discussion isn't even taking into consideration experience. The 20 year old male is likely to have significantly more experience in life and in relationships. If my daughter wants to date, she can pick any guy that's within a reasonable age difference ... as long as that guy isn't a prick. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Well I agree, it is a beautiful chart :). Remember our discussions before about age restrictions? I know that people mature at different ages but the laws are designed to protect those who mature later than others. Besides even goign by your graph, the 20 year old male is still significantly more mature than the 14 year old girl. Plus this discussion isn't even taking into consideration experience. The 20 year old male is likely to have significantly more experience in life and in relationships. If my daughter wants to date, she can pick any guy that's within a reasonable age difference ... as long as that guy isn't a prick. |
I agree with what you're saying, it's just that the age limit after which the dating becomes inapropriate varies in our opinions. I'm not saying 20 years is always appropriate, if a 20 year old biker dude would want to date my daughter, I'd beat him up, but I know quite a few nerds who are sort of nice people and who are quite harmless at 20. Anyway, what would you say would be the highest age a 14 year old girl could date? |
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