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PETA and Their Ongoing Insanity (pg. 8)
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| dj adagnitio |
| lol, its quite the name. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by dj adagnitio
I would disagree that a strictly vegan diet is neccisarely unhealthy, however that is a completely different argument. |
Hmm, check out the baby link above.
| quote: | | There is actually a strong argument for being a vegan. Keeping female animals to produce eggs and milk requires male animals to be born in more then the amount required to reproduce, therefor they are killed. So by creating demand for eggs, etc. you are supporting their murder. |
One bull is enough to fertilize thousands of cows. Same works for chickens, sheep, goats, etc.
| quote: | | It is completelly ridiculous to say that to live a 'quality' life we have to eat animals. That has no founding any kind of reality. |
Ask Dalai Lama. He thought the same, got seriously ill, and had to resort back to eating meat. Besides, look at all the sport champions. They all eat meat. Meat gives strenght to the body.
| quote: | It is also a very dangerous justification to use that if we don't kill them someone else will. That logic could justify a lot of horrible things. It is true that we don't live in a world where everyone respects everyone and no one gets harmed. However that does not mean that we should not respect people and not harm them. Socities do change and we have to be the ones pushing for that change.
I also don't really see how you compare the way we kill to the way a lion does. The two things are just different in every way. |
We both kill for food.
| quote: | | I agree that racism is different and like I have already said several times it could of been anything I used as an example I was merely using it to point out the fault in his line of reasoning. |
Then you could have thinked of a better example.
| quote: | | However animals don't degrade the quality of your life and health. |
They do if we don't eat them.
| quote: | | So there is no valid reason to exploit them. The logic that is used is that 'using' them makes your life better. The exact same thing could be said of slavery. And after all at the point when it happened Blacks weren't people, just like non-human animals. |
Yes, except for two things. Aside from slaves being humans, slavery is a system where vast amounts of people are denied their rights and education. Therefore it is bad for the society. Eating meat makes people stronger, healthier, and is helping in brain development. Therefore eating meat improves the society. |
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| arctic |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Hmm, check out the baby link above.
Ask Dalai Lama. He thought the same, got seriously ill, and had to resort back to eating meat. Besides, look at all the sport champions. They all eat meat. Meat gives strenght to the body.
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Two quick points, firstly, the baby's parents were obviously idiots who had no clue as to the dietary requirements of a growing baby. I presume that there are alternatives to milk that could have been given to te baby, yet they no doubt didn't investigate that. I do feel sorry for that kid, with a name like that he really will get it in HS, but the simple fact is that his parents are stupid :p
As for the sport point, my mother actually made the olympics on a vegatarian diet, so believe it or not, it can be done :p |
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| dj adagnitio |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Hmm, check out the baby link above. |
Thats a pretty ridiculous thing to use as an argument. Clearly those parents were crazy and do not in any way reflect on the majority of vegans.
| quote: | | One bull is enough to fertilize thousands of cows. Same works for chickens, sheep, goats, etc. |
Exactly my point. Thank you for agreeing with me.
| quote: | | Ask Dalai Lama. He thought the same, got seriously ill, and had to resort back to eating meat. Besides, look at all the sport champions. They all eat meat. Meat gives strenght to the body. |
ok again one example (Dalai Lama) is not enough to generalize. And regardless his diet was almost entirelly brown rice.
Please go find me some article that says all sports champions eat meat. What makes you believe this? As the people above said, this is clearly not true. And it is true that meat gives strength to the body, however so do many other things.
| quote: | | We both kill for food. |
you dont see a slight difference between a lion killing in the wild because it has to to survive and us killing in factories with no necessity?
| quote: | | Then you could have thinked of a better example. |
I think your still missing the point. The example doesnt matter. The point was that anything else would fit in there. Let me reiterate; the example does not matter, it is inconsequential to the argument.
| quote: | | They do if we don't eat them. |
How do animals degrade your quality of life when you don't eat them?
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Yes, except for two things. Aside from slaves being humans, slavery is a system where vast amounts of people are denied their rights and education. Therefore it is bad for the society. |
At the time slaves werent people, as I noted. and beyond that, why do humans deserve more rights then animals? In the system now vast amounts of animals are denied their rights. And it is clearly bad for society. I mean look at the health and environmental costs. Also elaborate on how slavery was "bad for society". It largelly built up America and allowed it to get to the point its at today.
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Eating meat makes people stronger, healthier, and is helping in brain development. Therefore eating meat improves the society. |
Please prove any part of that statement. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by dj adagnitio
Thats a pretty ridiculous thing to use as an argument. Clearly those parents were crazy and do not in any way reflect on the majority of vegans. |
But it proves that a strict vegan diet is unhealthy. For children, at least.
| quote: | | Exactly my point. Thank you for agreeing with me. |
How is that your point when you stated the opposite?
| quote: | | ok again one example (Dalai Lama) is not enough to generalize. And regardless his diet was almost entirelly brown rice. |
Still, it shows that at least some people can't live a healthy life on a vegan diet.
| quote: | | Please go find me some article that says all sports champions eat meat. What makes you believe this? As the people above said, this is clearly not true. And it is true that meat gives strength to the body, however so do many other things. |
I guess you don't need it in all sports, but you do in those that requre strength.
| quote: | | you dont see a slight difference between a lion killing in the wild because it has to to survive and us killing in factories with no necessity? |
Well, since there are only several hundred lions out there, wouldn't it be more humane to capture them all and to feed them with soya beans in captivity? So then all those pretty herbivores can freely roam the grassplains.
Now, I do agree that the conditions on animal farms are often inhumane, and that they should be improved. But I don't think we should abandon eating meat to have the chickens roam free (and die out because they're stupid retarded and incapable animals).
| quote: | | I think your still missing the point. The example doesnt matter. The point was that anything else would fit in there. Let me reiterate; the example does not matter, it is inconsequential to the argument. |
I'm glad we agree here :)
| quote: | | How do animals degrade your quality of life when you don't eat them? |
Because my body is lacking some of the essential nutrients and aminoacids found only in meat.
| quote: | | At the time slaves werent people, as I noted. and beyond that, why do humans deserve more rights then animals? In the system now vast amounts of animals are denied their rights. And it is clearly bad for society. I mean look at the health and environmental costs. Also elaborate on how slavery was "bad for society". It largelly built up America and allowed it to get to the point its at today. |
As members of the same species we should treat ourselves as equals. Besides, come on, a human is usually a more worthy individual than a cow. If you don't believe in it, then I guess you could say all life is equally worthy, so a potatoe shouldn't be eaten as well.
| quote: | | Please prove any part of that statement. |
Phew, there was some research that I remember that said meat is necessary for a child's brain development. I'm too lazy to search google now, but I'll post it here later. |
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| dj adagnitio |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
But it proves that a strict vegan diet is unhealthy. For children, at least.
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Have you actually read the article? It suggests that ignoring malnutrition, not giving the baby your breast milk, and nor consulting anyone on how it might be possible to do this in a safe way is unnhealthy for children.
I don't think anyone in their right mind would use that as an example of how veganism is unhealthy for anyone.
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How is that your point when you stated the opposite? |
why don't you go read what I wrote again. I clearly stated males would be born in more then the amount needed to fertalize females and the rest would be killed. I did not state the opposite of what you said.
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Still, it shows that at least some people can't live a healthy life on a vegan diet. |
Of course to live a healthy vegan life you have to eat in a certain way. But that is true of eating meat or not. If you eat meat you still have to watch what you eat. Do you think you can just sit there and eat steaks all day? of course not.
your example shows nothing,
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I guess you don't need it in all sports, but you do in those that requre strength.
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Im going to say this again. You clearly don't need meat to be strong. Go read the thing the body builder said below. If you can actually in some way back this up then please do.
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Well, since there are only several hundred lions out there, wouldn't it be more humane to capture them all and to feed them with soya beans in captivity? So then all those pretty herbivores can freely roam the grassplains. |
I am almost sure that if you did that the lions would die. But regardless of that, we are discussing nature and necessity. Our killing is definitelly not natural and clearly not a necessity.
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Now, I do agree that the conditions on animal farms are often inhumane, and that they should be improved. But I don't think we should abandon eating meat to have the chickens roam free (and die out because they're stupid retarded and incapable animals).
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So its ok to commit murder on a scale that would make hitler jealous but not to treat the animals meanly as you do it?
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I'm glad we agree here :)
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finally
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Because my body is lacking some of the essential nutrients and aminoacids found only in meat.
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again this is simply not true. Go back this up with a source or two. A lot of people in this world don't eat meat and are on the whole more healthy for it.
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As members of the same species we should treat ourselves as equals. Besides, come on, a human is usually a more worthy individual than a cow. If you don't believe in it, then I guess you could say all life is equally worthy, so a potatoe shouldn't be eaten as well.
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why should we treat each other as equals? is there some holy book that says this? why are we above everything else.
And a human is, from a logical point of view, a lot less worthy of an individual then a cow. thanks to us the world could be facing global economic catestrophe. Look at all the good we haVe done to this world, transforming it from beautiful forests to what it is today. And more to the point what it will be in ten years.
And a potatoe isnt sentient.
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Phew, there was some research that I remember that said meat is necessary for a child's brain development. I'm too lazy to search google now, but I'll post it here later. |
I dont think so buddy. |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by dj adagnitio
And a human is, from a logical point of view, a lot less worthy of an individual then a cow. thanks to us the world could be facing global economic catestrophe. Look at all the good we haVe done to this world, transforming it from beautiful forests to what it is today. And more to the point what it will be in ten years.
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Save the cows, kill the humans!!! No offense, but you sound like a self-hating human. We're not worthy of being here, we should all kill ourselves and repent for molding and shaping this world as we see fit, for creating great technological developments, for achieving goals that seemed impossible only a few decades ago.
There is no denying that there are plenty of bad consequences that have come with astounding gains. It's true in every case. Humans have created automobiles and airplanes among other things that allow us to travel much greater distances in much less time, however one downside has been some environmental pollution and traffic congestion. We have created drugs that enable us to survive ailments that would've been considered plagues not that long ago. We have created refrigerators that allow us to preserve food for longer periods of time, thus making us even less wasteful. We have created the printing press, which has made literature available to the masses, allowing society to become more literate and educated about anything and everything. We have invented computers which allow us to sit here and have these silly debates! And of course, we have even created weapons that allow us to destroy eachother at will.
Cows have given us steak and milk. (God bless 'em!). However we have developed technologies to make their milk more healty and plentiful. We have figured out how to make those damn steaks more tender and flavorful. But I digress. Comparing the worth of a human to the worth of a cow is like comparing apples to tree bark. However, show me the last time a cow sat down and figured out special relativity, and proceeded to write a book on an expanding universe. (I'm counting on those Chik-Fil-a cows to come through for me on this one). Let's not lose sight of the forest for the trees. :toothless |
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| dj adagnitio |
| As it goes we have done very well for ourselves. However these gains are not worth what we have done to the planet. From a completelly logical point of view how have those gains improved the planet? Do you think Earth is better off now then it was several thousand years ago? |
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| Shakka |
Who knows. None of us were here several thousand years ago to give you an adequate synopsis. Do I think the face of the planet has changed dramatically over the last thousand years? Of course! Is it better or worse off? Who are we to say? Who are you to make such a broad encompassing statement? The Earth is also not sentient (to the best of my knowledge), so who's to say what's better or worse, and how much pros outweigh/underweigh cons?
Why just hundreds of thousands of years ago, the earth was being pummeled by asteroids and there was at least one ice age. Couldn't you just as easily say that the earth was much worse off back then?
You make it sound like we'd all be better off if we were still cavemen with a near inability to speak! Is that an ultra-ultra-reactionary philosophy? |
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| dj adagnitio |
| again, I didn't say Humans are worse off now. To look at it from anything but the most selfish point of view the world is worse off. Species are going extinct. Forests are being cut down. The world is dying. |
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| Shakka |
True, some species are going extinct, at the same time, many species have been rescued from the brink of extinction. Deforestation was, IMO, a bigger issue in the late 80's/early 90's, but we have developed much better methods of reforestation and environmentalists (as much as they get on my nerves sometimes) have a much louder voice now and the world in general seems to be more open to conservation/preservation.
It's not that I think your argument is without merit, I just think you're painting a much dimmer picture of reality than what is actually the case. You sound somewhat like a defeatist. |
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| dj adagnitio |
deforestation is still a huge issue, but it gets a lot less attention now. And can you name any species that we have saved from extinction? that we had not caused that is. The only one I can think of s the giant panda. A lot of people argue they are genetically 'bad' and should be allowed to die off because they would naturally. However it is still not generally accepted and not proven in any sense.
I am not a defetist, We are here now in this situation so we have to do the best we can. |
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