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Sex & Love (pg. 4)
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| Boomer187 |
| quote: | Originally posted by tranceaholic
i think his question was what makes us believe in god..what reason do we have..i sorta touched that in my previous post..check it out |
I know, I started replying before you replied...
I am a slow typer. |
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| caddyshack |
| quote: | Originally posted by Boomer187
atheist?
Religion is based on faith, not evidence. |
what a cop-out |
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| arctic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Boomer187
sounds like your describing Pascal's wager. He said you have nothing to lose in being religious. |
Just touching on that, Pascal's wager is possibly the weakest argument I've ever heard for converting to a particular religion. Firstly, an atheist has lost something; their integrity (and possibly ethical standards). They've wasted their life living a lie. If I was to believe in the inerrancy of the bible, and to use it as a basis for my ethical standards, then I would have to condone/accept as moral the abuse of women, mass killing, cruelty to animals, the slaughter of innocent children, warmongering and so forth. Unfortunately, I can't do that.
Secondly, there is more than more than one major world religion. Christianity has over 1.5 billion followers, I've seen a figure of 1.3 billion thrown around for Islam, and up to a billion for Hinduism as well. I've seen anything from around 200 million to six hundred million for Buddhism, and even then you're faced with Wicca, Taoism, pagan religions, and a multitude of ancient religions (Such as a belief in Zeus and so forth). Many of these religions assert that you're going to hell if you don't follow their beliefs. Therefore, which religion do you choose? Pascal's wager simply doesn't cut it. |
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| Boomer187 |
| quote: | Originally posted by caddyshack
what a cop-out |
no really, it is.
| quote: | Originally posted by arctic
Just touching on that, Pascal's wager is possibly the weakest argument I've ever heard for converting to a particular religion. Firstly, an atheist has lost something; their integrity (and possibly ethical standards). They've wasted their life living a lie. If I was to believe in the inerrancy of the bible, and to use it as a basis for my ethical standards, then I would have to condone/accept as moral the abuse of women, mass killing, cruelty to animals, the slaughter of innocent children, warmongering and so forth. Unfortunately, I can't do that.
Secondly, there is more than more than one major world religion. Christianity has over 1.5 billion followers, I've seen a figure of 1.3 billion thrown around for Islam, and up to a billion for Hinduism as well. I've seen anything from around 200 million to six hundred million for Buddhism, and even then you're faced with Wicca, Taoism, pagan religions, and a multitude of ancient religions (Such as a belief in Zeus and so forth). Many of these religions assert that you're going to hell if you don't follow their beliefs. Therefore, which religion do you choose? Pascal's wager simply doesn't cut it. |
I know, I would never say this wager is a good one. Nor does anyone have any answers for which god to believe in...again, you must understand faith. You must feel it inside and believe in it.
I don't have that feeling so I know no religion to turn to. |
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| arctic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Boomer187
no really, it is.
I know, I would never say this wager is a good one. Nor does anyone have any answers for which god to believe in...again, you must understand faith. You must feel it inside and believe in it.
I don't have that feeling so I know no religion to turn to. |
It wasn't necessarily directed at you, but I just see it being used with disturbing regularity, when it has in fact been debunked countless times.
If you don't mind, can I ask you (Or anyone else who is willing to answer) about faith?
Most people describe their faith as a 'warm feeling in their stomach/heart'. It's generally described as an uplifting feeling, almost euphoric love. I experienced that in a brief stint as a theist. I truly believed that the Christian god was up there looking down on me, despite there being absolutely no evidence to verify it. I experience something like that with atheism, I wonder at the natural world and of how it all functions.
Dictionary.com defines it as:
# Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
# Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
I could easily have faith that Elvis is actually Satan, and just happens to be sitting behind my chair ready to implant a knife in my back. I do tend to utilize this quote too much, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. When someone says they have 'faith', it usually means that they have no evidence/rational basis for believing what they do, so they're going to have to fall back on the classic 'it just is, ok?' position.
Once again, I'm not attacking you (Or even specifically speaking to you even, most Christians/Muslims & Hindus tend to eventually fall back on the 'faith' argument), I'd just like to get inside the mind of someone who uses it I suppose. :nervous: Ah yes, one more thing, none of this applies to Deists, I see their belief as perfectly understandable, and since I have not yet explored the physics/astronomy area, I won't presume to judge them. |
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| Illusion |
| quote: | Originally posted by Boomer187
I am more on the scientific side of things.
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pft.. what has science done for us lately?
I'm gonna go microwave some food and play xbox games with people around the globe now. :D |
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| Zombie0915 |
The reason I still believe in it is because the idea that everything has happened by chance just doesnt make sense to me. When I look at the world and everything that happens every day I just can't believe that all this stuff happened gradually over time. When I see things happen every day I just can't convince myself that there is no reason for them to happen. To me, there must be some intelligent force that created us and somehow governs everything that happens, but still allows us free will. Some people might call that faith, I believe it is a pretty logical idea.
Many many people have tried to explain life and the grand scheme of things with lots of different religions, but its impossible that every one of them is correct. Taking the approach that beleif in any religion at all will get you to heaven just sounds retarted to me. There has to be one correct explanation, and the rest are all wrong. Nobody likes being told that they are wrong so that idea has gained popularity as of late, but I think its a bunch of BS.
To me, the explanations that make the most sense are the ones found in the Bible, the book was written gradually over many years, there are prophecies in the beggining of it that predict things that happened thousands of years later and are mentioned in the later parts, archaeologists have found out that some things really did happen by actually digging stuff up. Miracles happened that seem like something which could only be done by God. At church ive met people who have had amazing things happen to them, since I accepted God my life has been transformed ever since, After reading the Bible several times I feel as if I have a better understanding of the world and my place in it.
Thats how I justify my beleifs, I tried to keep it short but I could easily say more.
Religous TA threads are so much fun :) |
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| arctic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zombie0915
The reason I still believe in it is because the idea that everything has happened by chance just doesnt make sense to me. When I look at the world and everything that happens every day I just can't believe that all this stuff happened gradually over time. |
Are you referring to life itself when you say 'all this stuff'. If so, are you a creationist of an evolutionist? (Or do you subscribe to an alternate theory?)
| quote: | | When I see things happen every day I just can't convince myself that there is no reason for them to happen. To me, there must be some intelligent force that created us and somehow governs everything that happens, but still allows us free will. Some people might call that faith, I believe it is a pretty logical idea. |
Fair enough, I disagree, and I hold to the belief that Intelligent Design has been throughly disproven/debunked, but i'm more interested about your faith in Christianity (specifically the bible).
| quote: | | Many many people have tried to explain life and the grand scheme of things with lots of different religions, but its impossible that every one of them is correct. Taking the approach that beleif in any religion at all will get you to heaven just sounds retarted to me. There has to be one correct explanation, and the rest are all wrong. Nobody likes being told that they are wrong so that idea has gained popularity as of late, but I think its a bunch of BS. |
I agree with you when you state that not every religion can be correct, I hold the view that either one is correct, or they're all (Theistic religions this is) a load of bollocks (Which is what i believe at the moment). I'm pretty much in full agreement with you here, although I turn to science & philosophy to explain life rather than religion (Yes, I realize that philosophy deals with religion).
| quote: | | To me, the explanations that make the most sense are the ones found in the Bible, the book was written gradually over many years, there are prophecies in the beggining of it that predict things that happened thousands of years later and are mentioned in the later parts, archaeologists have found out that some things really did happen by actually digging stuff up. Miracles happened that seem like something which could only be done by God. At church ive met people who have had amazing things happen to them, since I accepted God my life has been transformed ever since, After reading the Bible several times I feel as if I have a better understanding of the world and my place in it. |
This is the part I'm most interested in/primarily disagree with.
Let's examine some of the explanations in the bible. First off we have two conflicting creation accounts at the beginning of Genesis . These affirm that the world was created in 6 days, 6000 years ago. Since this has been proven false by science, let's move on shall we. What prophecies in particular are you referring to? This is a pretty shady area, as it does come down to interpretation in a way. For every prophecy that has been 'fulfilled', there'll be another that has not occurred. I'm really going to need specific examples here, as for me to judge a prophecy to be genuine, it would need to be something that violates the laws of logic/reason, in essence something that god and god alone could have performed. Simply saying that 'some people will reject Christianity' doesn't cut it for me, it has to be something more substantial than that. With the archaeology point, if you're referring to the Noah's arc finding, then I believe it was actually a hoax. Once again, evidence please. Miracles, once again, evidence. If you are referring to the miracles that the catholic church uses to justify ordaining people as saints, then your argument doesn't hold, they have been shown to be a load of rubbish time and time again. Apparently recovery from a disease must be divine intervention if someone has prayed to god. They don't seem to take into account the fact that the person could have easily just recovered from the illness, and that praying may have had nothing to do with their recovery (Hell, I'm an atheist and I've recovered from illness).
As for the bible, what is your response to some of some of the Biblical contradictions listed on http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/? What about how it condones beating your wife, outlaws wearing clothes with two different fabrics, claims the earth is flat, claims the world is 6000 years old. How about god killing everyone on earth, then deciding that it wasn't such a smart thing to do after all. How about god killing 40 innocent toddlers because they laughed at a bald man.
Reading the bible is what made me reject Christianity. I simply can't endorse the ethical standards & morals that the bible portrays and endorses (Even excluding the fact that I've seen no evidence for the existence of the Xian god)
Once again, I'm not trying to attack you here, I'm just honestly fascinated by your beliefs. If I come across the wrong way, then I apologise, my intention is not to offend. |
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| Zombie0915 |
| quote: | Originally posted by arctic
Are you referring to life itself when you say 'all this stuff'. If so, are you a creationist of an evolutionist? (Or do you subscribe to an alternate theory?)
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I believe evolution does exist and that everything has adapted in certain ways, but I don't think it all started with some dust on an asteroid, I think at some point something had to be created. I use what I call my "mouse trap theory". Think of a mouse trap and the components that make it work, there is cheese, a platform, a hook a spring some metal stuff, but if you put all those parts in a pile together they dont neccesarily make a working mouse trap, things have to be put together by something in the right way in order for them to work. I see life in the same way, that something had to put us together, and it had to be more than a gradual mutation from a single celled organism that made that happen.
by all this stuff I mean both the origin of life and the things that happen every day. I suppose an example would be good to use here, but my computing time is over so that will come later
I'm, gonna reply to your other stuff later, I'm out of time and It seems like you need titles of books and such that I can't name of the top of my head at the moment. |
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| Bondor |
| quote: | Originally posted by sExY pErSiAn
I totally agree with u... but according to the bible... even if i am safe and not hurting anyone... I'm still going to hell. |
YEAH! you read the bible! :stongue: |
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| tranceaholic |
| lets just remember here that the bible is written by four different people..i bet if i tell a long story to 4 of u each will interpit it differently..it will be hard for 4 to see it from the same exact point..so there might be some diffrences which is understndable..and ever thought that thier might be events that werent in the bible at all..missing scriptures.lets remember here that it is not written by jesus himslef and it is the only account we have..did anyone see the movie stigmata? good movie..also shows that there could be other scriptures that we dont know about...i totally believe in the bible but i see how it could be incomplete..if u see the movie stigmata it tells u about a scripture that was missing and it says..god is in u and all around u ask for him and he shall be there with some other quotes that i truly belive...that is what faith is about..if u try to be a religious person n truly truly believe...u will feel that..when a miracle happen to u,when turn to him for the tough times and come out on top when u feel his presence around u..that is how u become a believer..not by seein some stars and goin someone must of made them.. |
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| Floorfiller |
| quote: | Originally posted by Zombie0915
The reason I still believe in it is because the idea that everything has happened by chance just doesnt make sense to me. When I look at the world and everything that happens every day I just can't believe that all this stuff happened gradually over time. When I see things happen every day I just can't convince myself that there is no reason for them to happen. To me, there must be some intelligent force that created us and somehow governs everything that happens, but still allows us free will. Some people might call that faith, I believe it is a pretty logical idea.
Many many people have tried to explain life and the grand scheme of things with lots of different religions, but its impossible that every one of them is correct. Taking the approach that beleif in any religion at all will get you to heaven just sounds retarted to me. There has to be one correct explanation, and the rest are all wrong. Nobody likes being told that they are wrong so that idea has gained popularity as of late, but I think its a bunch of BS.
To me, the explanations that make the most sense are the ones found in the Bible, the book was written gradually over many years, there are prophecies in the beggining of it that predict things that happened thousands of years later and are mentioned in the later parts, archaeologists have found out that some things really did happen by actually digging stuff up. Miracles happened that seem like something which could only be done by God. At church ive met people who have had amazing things happen to them, since I accepted God my life has been transformed ever since, After reading the Bible several times I feel as if I have a better understanding of the world and my place in it.
Thats how I justify my beleifs, I tried to keep it short but I could easily say more.
Religous TA threads are so much fun :) |
i think that is actually the biggest reason for believing for people. they want answers as to the origins of the world and utimately end up relying on the explaination of god must have started it. ok, so i understand that, but what about the bible leads you to believe that THIS is the god that did all of that. at this argument i could definitely see someone who has come to that conclusion believing in a higher power, but why does it have to be the God of the christian church or any other religion.
you said that you think that the bible has to most appealing way of explaining the beginings, but really think what it is. the bible is nothing more that a historical text that was created by bishops over a number of years. what gives them the "divine" understanding that would lead to them being able to accurately relate the ideas of god to the people. now of course, you might say that they are connected to god through their position or something like that, god speaks to them. of course there have been points in history when people have claimed to have a religious experience. it would seem natural that these people would be the proper ones to instruct others in the teachings of religion, but with the power associated with that position it can and has been abused through out history to gain power. how else can you explain the actions of the church collecting huge amounts of wealth and accepting bribes for indulgences and the like?
lets say that someone did in fact recieve some sort of message from god...would that person then desire the utmost position of authority? doesn't the bible teach one to be humble?
of course we can keep this going on forever because i have a lot to say on the issue hehehe.. |
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