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Israel question (pg. 3)
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| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by igottaknow
My question is for thoses of you who are not citizens, why do you care so much about Israel? |
If I may be so bold to answer my own question. The essential idea I got from reading the replies was that Jews view themselves more than a religious sect; they define themselves as a culture or a people apart from the countries they live in. Since, I'm not Jewish that concept while not invalid is strange to me. I don't base my political views on my faith and likewise I define my culture from the region and nation I live in.
The other point I'd like to make is I'm not against the existence of a Jewish state; I just don't think its good idea to mix religion with politics. The manner in which Israel was created by forcefully displacing the native people is the root of the conflict, not the fact that it’s a Jewish state. Israel has misrepresented this conflict, portraying it as an anti-Semite battle, in order to leverage the sympathy for Jews to gain support for its policies. Israel is guilty of using the past persecution of Jews for its on selfish national purposes. Once religion gets involved it’s impossible to have a civil debate or resolution of an issue. Anyone who has seen that Mati thread knows what I mean.
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...threadid=171515
Btw, Israel isn't the first to use religion unfairly to gain support, it has happen all thoughout history and one of the most recent abuses would be Al-Queda's hijacking of Islam. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by igottaknow
The manner in which Israel was created by forcefully displacing the native people is the root of the conflict, not the fact that it’s a Jewish state. |
Except for the fact that that's a gross misrepresentation of what actually happened, you got it.  |
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| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Except for the fact that that's a gross misrepresentation of what actually happened, you got it. |
What happened then?
Palestinians appeared and then chose to leave? |
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| TranceGiant |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
What happened then?
Palestinians appeared and then chose to leave? |
Don't hijack another thread.
Kthxbye |
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| tathi |
| you're such a pro-gamer trancegiant :p |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by igottaknow
The essential idea I got from reading the replies was that Jews view themselves more than a religious sect; they define themselves as a culture or a people apart from the countries they live in. Since, I'm not Jewish that concept while not invalid is strange to me. I don't base my political views on my faith and likewise I define my culture from the region and nation I live in.
The other point I'd like to make is I'm not against the existence of a Jewish state; I just don't think its good idea to mix religion with politics. |
this may be a strange concept, but it is true. i am far from being religious yet consider myself strongly jewish. in a way dont look at israel as being a state for the jewish religion, but for the jewish people. Infact israel enjoys freedom of religion and you may worship any god you want (or none at all) and still enjoy all the rights that any other citizen has. the only difference being that israel was set up to be the national country of the jewish people, and so might hold some benifets, like getting automatic citizenship if you're jewish. |
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| arctic |
On the Jewish ethnicity issue, i've heard the term "secular Jew" used, and i've conversed with Jews who reffer themselves as "atheist Jews". The impression I get is that many Jews view their supposed cultural herritiage as being more important than whether they actually follow the Jewish religion (i.e. - Judaism).
Is this an acurate assesment? |
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| Yoepus |
yea I think its similar to bonds Arab share, and Latins.
Mexicans for instance are deeply pasionate about Spain. Though they have. Same with Arabs, though they speak different dialects and are from diverging religions sects, and ethnic identies too (think Bedwin).
With Jews I think you would have to think of it like this.
Imagine all the Arabs, or Europeans, were one nation. Then they were all scattered away from Arab/Europe to places like Asia, Australia, Africa, and the Americas.
There was no longer any European or Arab country with an European or Arab majority in it.
Then the Europeans/Arab founded one country where they did have a majority in Arab or European lands.
How do you thin Europeans/Arab the world over would feel towards this new nation? I think there is an inherient bond.
Regardless however I am not a supporter of Israel because I am Jewish, there are many Jewish people that don't support Israel. I'm a supporter in Israel because I believe it is right. |
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| biznology |
| quote: | Originally posted by anuneventrade
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Perhaps had Israel existed, Germany might not have posessed such a great hatred towards Jews, because they would not have been in contact with them on a day to day basis. Maybe they would have lashed out on a different religion/ethnicity. ... |
At the same time - Germany was one of the most integrated countries in Europe with regard to Judaism before WWII. Thats a fact.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Yes, and in that time, they have been persecuted throughout, including having 6 million of them gased to death in Nazi concentration camps (plus God knows how many others in the USSR) and generally being forced to live in ghettos in Europe. I think I would want somewhere that I could feel safe and at home in if that were me (and if I were Jewish, that place would be America and nowhere near Israel! ;) ) |
But has Judaism been the only religion persecuted? The religion with the worst atrocities committed against it? Does the fact it grew before Christianity or Islam (not to mention all the other religions that likely existed long before Judaism) mean it deserves special consideration under the present?
| quote: | Originally posted by Galapidate
Probably the one reason I could think of would be that Jews need to have a homeland. Every other culture for the most part does, and Jews have lived in Israel throughout numerous periods of time. |
Every other culture? It/By what terms? Are you assuming that Nations are based on genetics - or that religion is blood based? Cause thats a whole 'nother argument...but Nationalism could provide an interesting tool of analysis of Judiaism and Israel - tho perhaps only during the 20th century, which isnt a very long time to discuss.
| quote: | Originally posted by YaleTrance
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If your family is Jewish, doesn't that mean that you're culturally and ethnically Jewish as well? :conf: |
That is an interesting point. The nationalist rhetoric that produces a nation like Israel bases the conception of it's state on Blood or Religion linkages...i will try to avoid discussing Nationalism yet again.
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Israel was formed for the following reason:
Jews have always lived as a minority under the whim and mercy of their overlords.
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Is this mutually exclusive to only after the time when Jews -became- minorities? (ie before that Jesus guy, etc)
There was likely a time when Jews were 'overlords' above other religions, if one is to search that far back in history.
NOTE: I dont discard your personal experience with persecution in your family, but arguing in terms of historical persecution in exclusive terms is difficult.
That being said, Jews are in an unenviable position in many places in the world. Then again entrenching themselves in the hotspot of religious fervor on Earth *also* seems like an unenviable position, yet again.
Any good? Seems like I am asking questions that just lead to more questions... |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
And are you, pray tell, one of these people? I sincerely hope that isn't the case, but the very idea that millions still hold to this backward philosophy demonstrates the reason Israel needs to exist as a Jewish state. Clearly, when anti-semitism is still so rampant, the Jews cannot trust anyone else to take care of them. |
no no no no no no! My post sounded awful but anti-semetism on my part was not intended. I stll stand by it though.
Clearly, Igottaknows misplaced ideals are neglecting the fact that, yes, the people who want to push Israel into the Med do not think of them as humans.
It's this irrational thought that is at the core here.
He hasn't made it clear if he realizes this or not. |
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| Cyrus King |
Many Jews consider themselves a "race". What i dont understand is how a morrocan jew is the same race as an eastern european jew. They have a common religious language and faith, but from different parts of the world.
Please explain. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by biznology
There was likely a time when Jews were 'overlords' above other religions, if one is to search that far back in history.
NOTE: I dont discard your personal experience with persecution in your family, but arguing in terms of historical persecution in exclusive terms is difficult.
That being said, Jews are in an unenviable position in many places in the world. Then again entrenching themselves in the hotspot of religious fervor on Earth *also* seems like an unenviable position, yet again.
Any good? Seems like I am asking questions that just lead to more questions... |
I want to answer that one. The dominant religion in every region probably does a lot of shifting. For hundreds of years before Judaism was popular, we had Paganism. Only long after Judaism started to decline in popularity did Christianity become the norm due to forced conversions and such. But alongside that we always had Hinduism and the "philosophical" religions like Confucianism and Taoism too. While all religions may have been ridiculed or persecuted at one point in time, I can't honestly believe that any have undergone such fervent and persistent persecution as the Jews. Simply because a religion is in the minority doesn't necessarily lead to its persecution.
Cyrus: the primary definition of a race is "A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics." So the group does not have to be local, as long as they descend from a common ancestry - and since most Jews, even secular Jews, tend to believe this, it does hold some merit as being a race.
Please note though that I'm only trying to clarify, I again do not consider myself to be a part of any "Jewish race." |
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