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Israel question (pg. 4)
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| biznology |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
[FONT=Tahoma][COLOR=#99CCEE]I want to answer that one. The dominant religion in every region probably does a lot of shifting. For hundreds of years before Judaism was popular, we had Paganism. Only long after Judaism started to decline in popularity did Christianity become the norm due to forced conversions and such. But alongside that we always had Hinduism and the "philosophical" religions like Confucianism and Taoism too. While all religions may have been ridiculed or persecuted at one point in time, I can't honestly believe that any have undergone such fervent and persistent persecution as the Jews. Simply because a religion is in the minority doesn't necessarily lead to its persecution.
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Yes, I understand, but perhaps what I consider one of the largest fallacies of Judo-Christian religious systems is the complete belief that 'Pagan' religions were all heathen and without merit. Why is one to look so far back in history for Judaism, Christianity or Islam and simultaneously think of Pagan ideals as 'uncivilized' or worse? In regards to true 'history' that is the biggest fallacy.
According to the history of the Earth there were likely more 'Pagan' religions than *true* ones!
Especially since one can argue that Nationalism can replace formal religion in the latter 20th century!
cripes| |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by biznology
Yes, I understand, but perhaps what I consider one of the largest fallacies of Judo-Christian religious systems is the complete belief that 'Pagan' religions were all heathen and without merit. Why is one to look so far back in history for Judaism, Christianity or Islam and simultaneously think of Pagan ideals as 'uncivilized' or worse? In regards to true 'history' that is the biggest fallacy.
According to the history of the Earth there were likely more 'Pagan' religions than *true* ones!
Especially since one can argue that Nationalism can replace formal religion in the latter 20th century!
cripes| |
I'm confused. I never said that there was anything wrong with the Pagan religions (technically I think there's a lot wrong with EVERY religion but let's not get into that here :p), I just said that Christians and other world religions persecuted the Jews moreso than the Jews persecuted the Pagans. Am I wrong? |
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| biznology |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
I'm confused. I never said that there was anything wrong with the Pagan religions (technically I think there's a lot wrong with EVERY religion but let's not get into that here :p), I just said that Christians and other world religions persecuted the Jews moreso than the Jews persecuted the Pagans. Am I wrong? |
Again, I dont have an *accurate* account-
i dont think anyone does. but still you argued before that Jews were unduly persecuted beyond that of other religions throughout time. i understand that in regards to late 19th Cent thru 21st Cent time that is clear - but beyond that where can you focus facts and description?
I think that every religion has been persecuted in EVERY area of the world| |
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| trancaholic |
This is a very interesting thread, but I have ended up being very confused about what the necessary and sufficient conditions for being "Jewish" are? DigiNut seems to have "chosen" not to be Jewish - is that possible? And can someone not Jewish - like me - choose to become a Jew?
And DigiNut gave a nice definition of race which included the phrase "genetically transmitted physical characteristics". What are those for Jewish people? |
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| biznology |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
This is a very interesting thread, but I have ended up being very confused about what the necessary and sufficient conditions for being "Jewish" are? DigiNut seems to have "chosen" not to be Jewish - is that possible? And can someone not Jewish - like me - choose to become a Jew?
And DigiNut gave a nice definition of race which included the phrase "genetically transmitted physical characteristics". What are those for Jewish people? |
Well thats quite interesting as many non-Jews that marry Jewish in the US *must* convert or are influenced to choose to convert.
As a non-Jew can -become- yet many 'ethnic' Jews choose not to practice, yet they get all the benefits of a Jewisht Nation.
Unforunately in overview it seems clear and obvious, but the overall practice is much more complicated. What is blood-based? What is religious and what is genetic? Anything?!? |
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| anuneventrade |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
This is a very interesting thread, but I have ended up being very confused about what the necessary and sufficient conditions for being "Jewish" are? DigiNut seems to have "chosen" not to be Jewish - is that possible? And can someone not Jewish - like me - choose to become a Jew?
And DigiNut gave a nice definition of race which included the phrase "genetically transmitted physical characteristics". What are those for Jewish people? |
Of course you can choose not to be a certain religion. Religion is a foundation of your faith. You may be raised one way and realize that you don't believe in what you were taught. That you have questions that are better answered by a different faith.
I too, was raised Jewish. However, my beliefs are not with Judaism. Simply because your entire family believes in one thing does not mean that you in turn, must also believe in the same thing. If it were that way, there wouldn't be any seperation of any religions.
Indeed you can realize your faith is with Judaism. You can convert (1 a : to bring over from one belief, view, or party to another b : to bring about a religious conversion in) to Judaism.
I think when individuals refer to Judaism as a race, they are using this definition (though DigiNut chose to use a different version):
Main Entry: race
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, generation, from Old Italian razza
2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics |
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| Yoepus |
gee, this is confusing. I don't even know if I'm Jewish anymore:conf:
:nervous:
:disbelief |
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| dj_ilan_yosef |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
This is a very interesting thread, but I have ended up being very confused about what the necessary and sufficient conditions for being "Jewish" are? DigiNut seems to have "chosen" not to be Jewish - is that possible? And can someone not Jewish - like me - choose to become a Jew? |
askmoses.com
he knows everything! ;) |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by dj_ilan_yosef
askmoses.com
he knows everything! ;) |
I found this in their FAQ:
| quote: | What is a Jew? Can a Jew lose his or her Jewishness?
All peoples of the world know who they are—they’re forthright about it. Koreans are Koreans, Norwegians are Norwegians, and Hyphenated-Americans are Hyphenated-Americans. But what are Jews? “Who—or what—am I?” is a question every Jew has asked at least once in his lifetime. And sadly, they have reason to, because instead of definitions, they have doubt. Is being Jewish a race? Religion? Tradition? Ethnicity? Nationality? Geographic origin? None of the above?
Here’s what a Jew is: a Jew is a spiritual state of being. A Jew is any human being who has a Jewish soul, regardless of his or her race, lifestyle or professed religion. You can be as hip as Jerry Seinfeld, as religious as Moses, as left-wing as Barbra Streisand or as conservative as your uncle Irving—you’re still Jewish. You could be an environmentalist, an industrialist, a fundamentalist—you’re still Jewish. You could try as hard as you can to be just like your neighbors—you’re still Jewish. You could “convert” to Christianity, or run off to India to “become” Buddhist—you’re still Jewish. You could even become an anti-Semite—you’re still Jewish. (Shocking but true, Jews have done that too—ever hear of Bobby Fischer?) You could be Caucasian, Negro, Hispanic; Irish, Norwegian, Hyphenated-American; whatever. No matter who you are or what you do, if you’ve got that Jewish soul, you’re Jewish. And nothing you do or decide to be can destroy that Jewish soul. |
Frankly, I'm still confused. |
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| Flotser |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
Many Jews consider themselves a "race". What i dont understand is how a morrocan jew is the same race as an eastern european jew. They have a common religious language and faith, but from different parts of the world.
Please explain. |
there are tons of historical proves that jews from different parts of the world are all originally from Israel & Middle East.
but another very interesting thing is....i'm not an expert, but there are many reaserches showing DNA relation between Jews, or for example between the "Cohen's"(a common jew family name) around the world. other show DNA relations between jews around the world and Mid-East society.
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by biznology
Again, I dont have an *accurate* account-
i dont think anyone does. but still you argued before that Jews were unduly persecuted beyond that of other religions throughout time. i understand that in regards to late 19th Cent thru 21st Cent time that is clear - but beyond that where can you focus facts and description?
I think that every religion has been persecuted in EVERY area of the world| |
Spanish Inquisition? But anyway, it's early in the morning and I'm not going to google for a timeline of persecution, but let's for the sake of argument assume that you're right and that all the persecution happened between the 19th-21st centuries (again, this is just hypothetical, for the sake of argument):
Even so, you haven't presented any evidence of other religions being persecuted anywhere before the 19th century. You're merely *assuming* that it happened in order to trivialize the persecution of the Jews. Show me evidence that any historical religion has been persecuted as much in the past 2000 years as the Jews have in the past 150 years and you may have a case for me to listen to. And incidents involving one religion performing a mass conversion or slaughter of EVERY other religion don't count, because I'm referring to incidents that specifically target ONE religion.
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
This is a very interesting thread, but I have ended up being very confused about what the necessary and sufficient conditions for being "Jewish" are? DigiNut seems to have "chosen" not to be Jewish - is that possible? And can someone not Jewish - like me - choose to become a Jew?
And DigiNut gave a nice definition of race which included the phrase "genetically transmitted physical characteristics". What are those for Jewish people? |
Cyrus asked how a Moroccan Jew is the same as an Eastern European Jew. Again, I've stated that it is because they feel they share a common lineage, and it is entirely possible that they do (and obviously, by this definition, they would share some genetic characteristics too, although it's immaterial in this case what characteristics those are).
But in the absence of sound medical evidence linking my genealogy to that of Jews 50000 miles away, I personally see that "lineage" belief as stemming from the religion itself, and since I'm an atheist, I don't believe in any of this. I'm maybe 1/16th Polish and 1/32 German too, but those figures are both immaterial to me and I wouldn't call myself either one.
So can I realistically be called Jewish even though I don't hold any Judaic beliefs and don't share any particular cultural values with those of Jews around me (any moreso than I share values with the Christians and Hindus and Arabs around me)? I would have to say no. Do I get "labelled" as Jewish because my parents were Jewish? If my parents were police offers does that make me a police officer? Jews believe that race comes from the mother and that if their mother was Jewish, so are they - how does this apply to me if I've systematically rejected the entire religion?
Again, I will say that the only place I can remember the "by blood" classification being popular is in Nazi Germany, where they said that if your grandfather was Jewish, so were you, regardless of who you were or what you believed or even what your parents were. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by biznology
Well thats quite interesting as many non-Jews that marry Jewish in the US *must* convert or are influenced to choose to convert. |
This is a religious belief, yes. But almost every single major religion shuns intermarriage - including Christianity. You may think they don't, because most members of the religion are relatively secular, but the religion itself holds the same limits.
| quote: | | As a non-Jew can -become- yet many 'ethnic' Jews choose not to practice, yet they get all the benefits of a Jewisht Nation. |
What "benefits"??? Merely because Israel fancies itself a Jewish state does not mean that Jews all over the world have special privileges there. I can assure you that if I flew down there and started calling myself a Jew, I wouldn't receive any special treatment from them. I'm not an Israeli citizen - period.
| quote: | | Unforunately in overview it seems clear and obvious, but the overall practice is much more complicated. What is blood-based? What is religious and what is genetic? Anything?!? |
I'll again say that I'm not aware of any serious medical evidence that shows common genes between ALL Jews. The point is that:
a) Practicing Jews believe this on faith and don't think that evidence is necessary;
b) Quasi-religious Jews often think of themselves in a "community" sense, i.e. in a local sense, much like other ethnic groups (like Slavs, Serbs, Poles, Persians, etc.), and link their ethnicity to the Jewish state which believe existed in historical times. The validity of this belief is somewhat dubious, but on the other side of the coin, many of these other ethnic groups don't understand anything about their ethnicity and call themselves Slavs, Serbs, Poles, Persians, etc. despite having never been to their "home" countries and knowing nothing about them.
c) Mostly secular Jews who refer to themselves as Jews are probably speaking in the mere cultural sense, that even if they're not religious, they share morals and values with other Jews in their community and across the world as well. That's because even if they don't "practice", they've still accumulated many of the traditions and traditional beliefs of Judaism. You know, like wanting their sons to be doctors or lawyers, and eating falafel and shawarma and hummus, that type of thing, get it?
So there you have it. For religious Jews, the classification is genetic. For conservative/moderate Jews, it is communal or "ethnic". And for secular Jews, it is purely cultural.
Personally I can't see myself as fitting into any one of these categories. And I'm probably not going to end up marrying a Jew or carrying on a Jewish family either, because there are many things I DISlike about the religion and the culture. So yes, I've made my "choice" and don't consider myself Jewish by any of those definitions. But the definitions are equally as valid as those used by many other ethnic groups.
"Blood-based" was used primarily in Nazi Germany and I totally reject any such classification. |
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