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ABORTION, How do you Feel? (pg. 5)
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| galdamez |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Your analogy would work if I had said "since the church is guilty of wrong-doings than all catholics are guilty of wrong-doings", but looking over my post I can't seem to find that statement. But it is fair to criticize the church as an institution because the institution itself is guilty of wrongdoings. If we are to use your argument than we cannot say that the Bush administration is crooked, since there are likely only a few "bad seeds" particularly Bush, Cheney, etc., as opposed to everyone in the administration as a whole. So is that a valid argument?
By the way, perhaps instead of papal scandals I should have expanded that statement to include the council of bishops who codify church doctrine, law, and political decisions. |
You didn't have to say it explicitly. It was implied by the fact that you rebutted the earlier statement, "it is not fair for the church to get that kinda slam for sins done by others." By citing evidence against this, you are implying that the the Catholic Church does deserve that kind of "slam." The problem here is it is not clearly defined who is getting the slam. When I read your comments, I was fairly certain you were criticizing the Catholic Church as a whole. There's a fine line between criticizing its members and its leaders. Yes, there are numerous reports of the its leaders having been involved in crimes. Does that mean the organization as whole is bad? It depends on high you want to go up. If you can prove the current pope is evil, then perhaps there's merit to what you're saying. If the Catholic Church was aware of such incidents and simply doing nothing about them, then there's even more merit to what you're saying. Past popes? Well, they're dead. Even within organizations that are meant to teach good you'll have some bad seeds. Blaming the organization as a whole is just as ignorant saying, "well, those terrorists attacking our nation are Muslim. Let's attack the Muslim faith." |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by galdamez
You didn't have to say it explicitly. It was implied by the fact that you rebutted the earlier statement, "it is not fair for the church to get that kinda slam for sins done by others." By citing evidence against this, you are implying that the the Catholic Church does deserve that kind of "slam." The problem here is it is not clearly defined who is getting the slam. When I read your comments, I was fairly certain you were criticizing the Catholic Church as a
whole.
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Well perhaps I should have clarified my original statement. Generally when I am referring to the institution of the church, I call it the church. If I am criticizing the religion or its members as a whole, I would refer my criticism to Catholics or Catholicism.
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There's a fine line between criticizing its members and its leaders. Yes, there are numerous reports of the its leaders having been involved in crimes. Does that mean the organization as whole is bad?
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If by organization, you mean priests in local parishes, than by all means you are correct. However, when I refer to the institution of the church, I am referring to those who directly affect vatican policy.
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It depends on high you want to go up. If you can prove the current pope is evil, then perhaps there's merit to what you're saying. If the Catholic Church was aware of such incidents and simply doing nothing about them, then there's even more merit to what you're saying. Past popes? Well, they're dead. Even within organizations that are meant to teach good you'll have some bad seeds. Blaming the organization as a whole is just as ignorant saying, "well, those terrorists attacking our nation are Muslim. Let's attack the Muslim faith." |
Well the mere fact that the vatican is issuing documents designed to cover up church abuse scandals more or less implies that the catholic church on a high level (since all bishops presumably receive such documents) is aware of such incidents and doing nothing about them. Despite the fact that these documents came out in 1962, even today the sex scandalous only came to light only after the media began covering it. And ONLY after the media began covering the issues did the church began earnest efforts to redress these issues rather than the normal practice of keeping things on the down low. This, to me, indicates that there are some very serious problems with the institution itself. Furthermore, the fact that the church has very many good people in it, does not excuse or shield the institution of the church from criticism since it's a top to bottom organization with very little formulation of church policy coming from the majority of church members on a local level. Therefore, one can rightfully criticize the church on the basis of those few members who are dictating policy for the church as a whole.
The only reason why I bring up past transgressions of the church, is to give light to the fact that incidents such as these are not isolated incidents solely attributed to a "few bad seeds", but a large part of the problem is due to the rigid structural hierarchy of the church system, which one can also rightfully criticize. |
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| trancEyes22 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Busy Child
if you are raised catholic, thats coo. But if you dont believe in the core values of catholicsm, and still call urself a catholic, thats not cool. There are bad apples in the catholic church, but we all know that it is not fair for the church to get that kinda slam for sins done by others. |
no, peter, i DON'T consider myself Catholic. i think religion is an organized cult to be honest. but, you can't make the excuse and say "there are a few bad apples in the church" when the sole people who are considered "closest to God" are committing the most horrible acts possible. and then, not only are those people going against what Catholicism stands for, the rest of the Church LIES for them and covers it up (by sending them to other parishes to committ the same wrongful acts). bad apples? no. evil? yes. |
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| DR86 |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancEyes22
no, peter, i DON'T consider myself Catholic. i think religion is an organized cult to be honest. but, you can't make the excuse and say "there are a few bad apples in the church" when the sole people who are considered "closest to God" are committing the most horrible acts possible. and then, not only are those people going against what Catholicism stands for, the rest of the Church LIES for them and covers it up (by sending them to other parishes to committ the same wrongful acts). bad apples? no. evil? yes. |
you can't make sweeping generalizations about the church. the priests in my parish never did anything like that, and they were never involved in any sort of scandal. that's true for 3/4 or more of the clergymen of the church. |
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| trancEyes22 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DR86
you can't make sweeping generalizations about the church. the priests in my parish never did anything like that, and they were never involved in any sort of scandal. that's true for 3/4 or more of the clergymen of the church. |
sweetie...wake up, they aren't generalizations, they are called FACTS. and how would you know? they may have covered it up, and some poor alter boy has yet to speak up about it.
yes there are good things about the Catholic Church, but I think their religion is perhaps the most hipocritical too. don't do what you preach against! |
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| DR86 |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancEyes22
sweetie...wake up, they aren't generalizations, they are called FACTS. and how would you know? they may have covered it up, and some poor alter boy has yet to speak up about it.
yes there are good things about the Catholic Church, but I think their religion is perhaps the most hipocritical too. don't do what you preach against! |
rule number 1: NEVER call me sweetie...EVER
And I know for a FACT that my priests have never, ever done that . facts and generalizartions are two different things, "Sweetie". to say the entire clergy are child molesters is a sweeeping generalization. do you know for a fact that every single priest ever has committed this crime? the hell you do. therefore, it's a generalization. A Fact is a proven truth. the fact is that a SMALL MINORITY of priests have done this. Now, stop making generalizations, because that's the aboslute worst thing you can ever do in a debate. you need to be factual and specific. |
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| trancEyes22 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DR86
rule number 1: NEVER call me sweetie...EVER
And I know for a FACT that my priests have never, ever done that . facts and generalizartions are two different things, "Sweetie". to say the entire clergy are child molesters is a sweeeping generalization. do you know for a fact that every single priest ever has committed this crime? the hell you do. therefore, it's a generalization. A Fact is a proven truth. the fact is that a SMALL MINORITY of priests have done this. Now, stop making generalizations, because that's the aboslute worst thing you can ever do in a debate. you need to be factual and specific. |
sorry sweetie!!! |
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| DR86 |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancEyes22
sorry sweetie!!! |
wow...grow up. if you have nothing to say in rebuttal, jsut stay out. i'd think someone your age would have a little more maturity, it seems I was mistaken. |
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| trancEyes22 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DR86
rule number 1: NEVER call me sweetie...EVER
And I know for a FACT that my priests have never, ever done that . facts and generalizartions are two different things, "Sweetie". to say the entire clergy are child molesters is a sweeeping generalization. do you know for a fact that every single priest ever has committed this crime? the hell you do. therefore, it's a generalization. A Fact is a proven truth. the fact is that a SMALL MINORITY of priests have done this. Now, stop making generalizations, because that's the aboslute worst thing you can ever do in a debate. you need to be factual and specific. |
...and you need to be accurate Jesus boy. where did i say that "EVERY MEMBER OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH MOLESTS PEOPLE"??? i didn't. so get your facts straight before you cry over some ed up associated with your religion. sweetie. |
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| DR86 |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancEyes22
...and you need to be accurate Jesus boy. where did i say that "EVERY MEMBER OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH MOLESTS PEOPLE"??? i didn't. so get your facts straight before you cry over some ed up associated with your religion. sweetie. |
calling me jesus boy and sweetie (again) goes to show that you really are an immature person. in your post that started "no, peter..." you said that the people closest to God (never specified hoe many, just stated) are the ones committing this crime. now, please stop calling me names, because all you're doing is making yourself look silly. speak like an adult. if you want to prove me wrong, please do so in a collected manner, i am always open to criticism on my ideas, however i do not appreciate aggressiveness and immaturity. that does nothing. |
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| trancEyes22 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DR86
calling me jesus boy and sweetie (again) goes to show that you really are an immature person. in your post that started "no, peter..." you said that the people closest to God (never specified hoe many, just stated) are the ones committing this crime. now, please stop calling me names, because all you're doing is making yourself look silly. speak like an adult. if you want to prove me wrong, please do so in a collected manner, i am always open to criticism on my ideas, however i do not appreciate aggressiveness and immaturity. that does nothing. |
relax, i couldn't help myself after i saw how mad you got. :p i'm not trying to prove ANYONE wrong, this thread is about abortion ffs and not religion. religion is a wholllllle other story, and even though i don't really practice any religion, i'm not gonna disrespect other ones. all i was saying is that i personally have withdrawn from the Catholic faith based on a LOT of that has happened with it in the past. and that's my opinion, so you can't really prove me wrong either. maybe you were too young to hear about all the thousands, YES THOUSANDS, of priests nationwide that were accused of sexual abuse, but it did happen. and that is a fact.
ok? |
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| DR86 |
I never got mad at you, I just got heated. I never get mad, except for when people do things I ask them not to (AHHEM!).
I respect your decision to leave the church. that's your thing and i'm not going to criticize you for your decision. I just dislike it when people start bashing the church because of the actions of a few. and even though I'm a mer 17 years of age, I do know a lot more than you think. im not an average teenage boy. the members of the political forum will testify to that. |
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