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Creation vs Evolution (pg. 23)
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| djverne |
| Arbiter, Seventil could nit pick at little things about our evolutionary theories like you just did but it doesn't prove anything, there are many differnet THEORIES as to how the climate and land masses might have been. Come on as evolutionists we need to be more consistant with our arguments if wre gonna nit pick at specialized diets arent we negating adaptation and organisms evolving. Anythings possible and as scientists we were'nt there to observe it so many theories can compete and it don't mean ones right just because its a theory. Anything can happen.Goodnes you if evolution is based on randomness should we be willing to except that maybe the tourtise could migrate whoe knows how can we write history when we were not there. |
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| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by Arbiter
So you're suggesting that giant tortoises which can move only 0.17 mph over short distances somehow migrated back to the galapagos islands by walking over "masses of ice" or land-bridges formed by lowered water levels while sustaining a highly specialized diet (http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/dietcons.html) and in an inhospitable climate?
You've made an admirable attempt at apologetics but you're really starting to reach now. |
If you find the idea of tortoises migrating around the world humorous, you'll die laughing thinking about worms or slugs making the same trip. Traveling from the Middle East to the Siberian peninsula before the ice age is over, traveling over the ice, down all the way to South America, and then over the ocean to the Galapagos Islands. But who knows maybe worms and slugs were larger and faster than their cousins of today? :wtf: |
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| Seventil |
| quote: | Originally posted by igottaknow
If you find the idea of tortoises migrating around the world humorous, you'll die laughing thinking about worms or slugs making the same trip. Traveling from the Middle East to the Siberian peninsula before the ice age is over, traveling over the ice, down all the way to South America, and then over the ocean to the Galapagos Islands. But who knows maybe worms and slugs were larger and faster than their cousins of today? :wtf: |
And interesting debate on the how did worms survive topic: (excerpts)
It's basically saying that worms and simliar creatures could have survived in a hydroponic-like environment during the Flood.
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Well, Can you explain how a raft of topsoil driftend on the ocean for a whole year?
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It wouldn't be a raft of topsoil, you need to think hydroponics, and theorize this would hold true for earthworms, too. Were talking oxygenated water, nutrient rich silts washing thru the debris, if the matrix is oxygenated, is there any reason the earthworms wouldn't beable to absorb oxygen, as long as excess moisture is draining thru the debris thats floating above the waters.
hy·dro·pon·ics ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hdr-pnks)
n. (used with a sing. verb)
Cultivation of plants in nutrient solution rather than in soil.
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Earthworms will not survive in loose, floating, debris. Let alone debris that are saturated in Salt Watter.
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Were talking of a whole lot of debris, trees, brush, grass, leaves no reason it wouldn't tangle together compacting enough, for earth worm habitats.
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Even if the rain were freashwatter, the vast majority of the water on earth (oceans) are salt watter. Unfortunetly duping a ton of rain on the world would invariably mix the freshwater and saltwater to the point where there was only salt watter.
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The freshwater over the continents did not mix with the oceans until they washed off the earth. The waters welled upward over the continents as freshwater, over the oceans it welled upward mixing with the oceans salty waters, thus preserving the freshwater fisheries, and the saltwater fisheries, etc...
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This water would kill the earthworms.
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Salt water would of killed the earthworms, but over the continents it was fresh water raining down, causing the welling up of waters over the continents. The reason they washed off the earth is given in psalm 104:6-10, that God created valleys for them to rush to, meaning he lowered the oceans to recieve the fresh waters that flooded the earth, it was at this time the fresh waters over the continents flowed to the salty oceans, God even takes credit for creating the freshwater springs, within the context of the flood, supporting the fresh water aquifiers are the result of the flood waters over the continents being freshwater and not salt water. kjv psalms 104:10-13. Its the waters over the continents being freshwater, the ph would be perfect for earthworm growth, if it was an oxygenated aqautic habitat, it would of allowed the earthworms to absorb oxygen, even if they were swimming a bit, they could crawl out and be continually absorbing oxygen, cause it would not be a anerobic condition {stagnant water}, etc...
This article said earthworms live on the sandy bottoms of lakes, maybe he didn't mean earthworms, but it also said as summer algae blooms die offs decreased the oxygen levels deplete killing off some of the these oxygen dependent micro-organisms. Like what is an earth worm doing on the bottom of a lake, likely absorbing oxygen, feeding on organics, apparently earthworms have an ability to adapt, to the different aerobic environments, etc...
http://www.oceaninn.com/guides/streams.htm
The sandy bottom is home to sponges, snails, earthworms and insects. Muddy bottoms house crayfish, the nymphs of mayflies, dragonflies and damselflies, as well as leeches and snails.
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from: http://www.evcforum.net/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000299-2.html
Although I admit the "topsoil raft" thing might be a bit of a stretch, perhaps this explanation is better:
Regarding how worms survived the Flood:
They could have been on the Ark.
They could have survived in a scenario like the one above.
They could have survived in some other unknown way
What we do know - is that they did survive. ;)
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As for what they did after the Flood...
Although I'm not a worm expert, I remember hearing that worms are vital for renewing soil and whatnot, and actually move quite fast underground. They are also able to have a lot of offspring, meaning their numbers would explode and they could multiply to cover the land relatively quick. Also, if they weren't on the ark, they would have most likely survived in multiple places, helping the plantlife regrow once the Flood was over. |
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| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
Also, as far as interconnectivity of the continents, a post-Flood ice age explains it perfectly. If their are ginormous masses of ice being moved and melting, the water levels will be significantly lower, allowing for walking access to everywhere - from Galapagos to Australia, Russia to Canada, etc. |
So you've changed your opinion and believe there was an ice age after all. Great now you can answer the question I had before.
Why is the ice age not mentioned in the bible? Sure the flood of 40 days is spectacular but what about 1000+-year-old ice age, doesn't even warrant a single line in the bible?
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
"What did carnivores eat? Well the question presupposes that there WERE carnivores, which may or may not have been true. It also presupposes that carnivores MUST eat flesh. There are plenty of examples of carnivores today that can live quite healthily on vegetation. In fact, I'm unaware of any land animal that cannot survive on a vegetation diet (let me know if you are aware of any...BR).
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I've got an experiment for you to try. Have a pet cat? Feed it vegitables for almost a year. If your cat is still alive I will gladly agree that you are right.
Oh about your worm theory. Wood floats not dirt. Worms can't survive without dirt. I'll let you draw your own conclusions. |
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| Seventil |
| quote: | Originally posted by igottaknow
So you've changed your opinion and believe there was an ice age after all. Great now you can answer the question I had before.
Why is the ice age not mentioned in the bible? Sure the flood of 40 days is spectacular but what about 1000+-year-old ice age, doesn't even warrant a single line in the bible? |
My repitition is bordering on the lines of absurding.
Quoting myself, yet again: *sigh*
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There is no "ice age" in the Bible because it did not last 10,000 years like evolutionists say. (At least from a Biblical point of view). The effects of a "high-energy catastrophic Flood" are what brought us "ice-age-like" geological events, such as huge chunks of ice scraping up through Canada and stuff like that. We can discuss these if you want, however I must stress they are clearly covered on any main Creationist site. I've listed these above.
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igottaknow, I respect you for having questions about these matters and whatnot, but quite frankly, I'm not going to answer any more of your questions unless you prove to me you've taken the time to a. read my posts which I've carefully written out for you as simply as possible and b. have the professional respect of at least researching Creation theory before ranting on about illogical and quite silly questions.
So, do some research, and ask me intelligent questions. I'm trying to be patient as possible but your questions and statements are lost somewhere between ignorance and futility. |
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| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
My repitition is bordering on the lines of absurding.
Quoting myself, yet again: *sigh*
igottaknow, I respect you for having questions about these matters and whatnot, but quite frankly, I'm not going to answer any more of your questions unless you prove to me you've taken the time to a. read my posts which I've carefully written out for you as simply as possible and b. have the professional respect of at least researching Creation theory before ranting on about illogical and quite silly questions.
So, do some research, and ask me intelligent questions. I'm trying to be patient as possible but your questions and statements are lost somewhere between ignorance and futility. |
Am i missing something you said a few post ago
| quote: | | a post-Flood ice age explains it perfectly. |
What am i missing? If you don't believe it last 10,000 years then how long do you presume it lasted. Note glacial ice moves at the rate of inches per year, and remember you will have to allow time for the ice to move down and then retreat. |
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| Seventil |
| quote: | Originally posted by igottaknow
Am i missing something you said a few post ago
What am i missing? |
By "ice age" in my second quote, I was referring to the "ice-age-like" effects that were upon the world. It is quite certain than enormous masses of ice slid up and down the continents. What is debatable is the length of said ice age. Evolutionists say it was 10,000 + years - but they have no evidence to back that up. While I agree that it is a meritable claim, I believe the Biblical explanation. The post-Flood ice age was probably only a few hundred years, as the water level of the earth slowly rose, splitting the continents up as we see them today.
EDIT:
As for the glacial ice movement calculation - take into consideration a global catastrophic event (the Flood) and it explains accelerated ice movement rates. |
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| tiesto14 |
I still find it funny how Seventil has refused to dispute my common sense arguement...LOL...
By the way u said it was fresh water that flooded the earth....um that mush fresh water would kill every last sea creature..AGAIN please use common sense...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
So, do some research, and ask me intelligent questions. I'm trying to be patient as possible but your questions and statements are lost somewhere between ignorance and futility. |
I posted common sense arguements...forget intelligent ones, because no intelligent person in the year 2004 can actually stand with a straight face and say the bible has any validity...so before you call him ignorant why don't you TRY and dispute my arguments... |
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| igottaknow |
| Look Tiesto, Seventil was probably indoctrinated into this belief system when he was a child. He can't discard his upbringing at a drop of hat. Hopefully, one day he will reflect on the inconsistencies and exaggerations in the bible that we have pointed out, and come to his own conclusion that the scientific methods discussed reveal a far different history of the earth than is in the bible. I'm actually glad that I took the time to learn about the details in the bible that creations cling too. I never knew how absurd the bible is until now. I also have gained more respect for the achievements of the sciences. BTW, Seventil is going to have difficulty replying to questions that aren't answered by creationist sites, so don't get mad at him I think he's done an admiral job so far. ;) |
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| tiesto14 |
igottaknow
....i also am glad i spent some time researching what is in the bible, otherwise i would still be a Christian sheep. I am now a Deist.
I now hold a beleif that if you spend time studying different political parties before you decide what you are (Democrat, Republican, Moderate, Progressive, Concervative, Liberal etc) then you should also soend the same time studying different religions and beleifs before you state what you are. I feel that anyone who does not study most different religions and beleifs has no more of strong foundation in religion then someone who says "i am a Republican because my dad was".
One thing i can tell you is, if being a Christian, or any other religion, helps you through life in a better way then i am all for it. I personally could not live my life better knowing what i know and seeing all the inconsistences(sp?) in the bible and most religions. But if it makes others happy then i am all for it. It's when these religous people start preaching and pushing their views on others that bothers me. If someone says soemthing that is patently absurd or a down right lie then i have to call them on it, and that is the case with religous types.
anyway cya...lol
:p |
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| Seventil |
| quote: | Originally posted by tiesto14
I still find it funny how Seventil has refused to dispute my common sense arguement...LOL...
By the way u said it was fresh water that flooded the earth....um that mush fresh water would kill every last sea creature..AGAIN please use common sense...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: ...:rolleyes: |
Man... I replied to that. It's like 6 posts above, right after you said "I like how he skipped it!" or whatever.
Grow the piss up and learn how to read, kid. |
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