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Creation vs Evolution (pg. 25)
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| speedracer_mec |
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
Due to the fact that your post is filled with rhetoric, personal attacks and ... yeah that about summed it up, I'm not justifying any of that with a response.
In conclusion, I respect what you believe, I urge you to do the same to others. Contempt for others beliefs is exactly why people have died for them in the past; people like you have filled the churches and crusaded not for God's cause, but for your own. I will hope and pray that one day you will realize there is a God; if not, I will hope that you find it in your heart to accept others beliefs without chastesizing them for it. |
have a safe trip buddy
pce |
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| Seventil |
| quote: | Originally posted by tiesto14
So that means now you have fear being you found God?:conf: |
Yes. When I was atheist, I feared nothing; because I was my own God. I may have feared death, but it was in a "I hope I don't die because I want to be great" sort of way.
Nowadays, I have a fear of God. It is the first step of wisdom; fear of God.
As for traditional fear, as in afraid of earthly things and whatnot; I can say I've been "concerned" - like when I was in Iraq a few months ago and mortars were dropping around me. Afraid though? No, there is a certain tranquil feeling you get knowing you are content with dying.
I believe you can find God through religion or science; it's all about realizing and embracing the fact that something bigger than we can imagine brought it all together. That's actually a big reason I converted to a Diest - I studied quantum mechanics exclusively for a while. It scared the out of me.
As Neils Bohr said:
Anyone who is not afraid of quantum mechanics does not understand it.
If you can study that and think that there isn't some intrensic, greater power behind the universe... well, more power to you. I couldn't. |
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| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
Funny how you say fear is the great motivator to become religious... it's the one thing I didn't have as an atheist. |
We all have our own reasons for our belief systems. Maybe it was presumptuous of me to assume to know yours. Regardless, the point still stands that the bible doesn't hold up as creditable source for earth's history or for that matter the universe. But take heart this doesn't mean: god doesn't exist or the bible isn't a worthy source of spiritual inspiration.
Today we seem to be obsessed with desire for reality. If it's not real it has no value. In my experience the most moving literature has been fiction. The Renaissance paintings of a blue eyed, white skin Jesus should serve as a reminder how easy it is to recreate the past to our liking. You're naive to presume the people who wrote the bible operated as neutral observers with no desire to create a history of the earth to their liking. |
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| Seventil |
| quote: | Originally posted by igottaknow
We all have our own reasons for our belief systems. Maybe it was presumptuous of me to assume to know yours. Regardless, the point still stands that the bible doesn't hold up as creditable source for earth's history or for that matter the universe. But take heart this doesn't mean: god doesn't exist or the bible isn't a worthy source of spiritual inspiration. Today we seem to be obsessed with desire to see reality. If it's not real it has no value. Literature that has the greatest impact on me has been fiction. I remember people struggling with the realization that Jesus could not have been a white skinned and blue eyed as pictured all those Renaissance paintings. That should server as an example how easy it is to recreate the past to our liking. You're naive to presume that the people who wrote the bible operated as neutral observers with no desire to create a history of the earth to their liking. |
Oh I'm quite aware of the mistakes man has made in the past in the name of God. I question the Catholic church; I hope that most the conspiracies and things I have heard about them are not true. I agree that it is easy to assume that the church in the past has distorted things wrongly; making Jesus a certain skin color, hiding true books of the Bible, etc. Although I disagree about the "authors" of the Bible - I believe they were inspired by God to write the things they did, and they did so as neutrally as possible. What man did with them afterward, however, is a different story. I believe that God has kept his Word whole like he promised.
I almost got a hint of "wanting to believe" in the first half of your paragraph. I urge you to not stereotype "God" as something that you have to find through religion, or find at church, or whatever. Everyone who believes has a different reason on why they do; while mine is too many philosophy and psychology classes + quantum mechanics - I think it is completely feasible to find God through other means of religion. Even hardcore evolutionists agree that something brought everything together from nothing (the singularity of the big bang, abiogenesis) - and I respect anyone who is capable of realizing that we, as humans, are not all knowing, and there is something out there that brought us together, a divine Designer of sorts. |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
1. Evolution has never been observed.
2. Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
3. There are no transitional fossils.
4. The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance. (Abiogenesis)
5. Evolution is only a theory; it hasn’t been proved.
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Are these your arguements? If so are you sure you have read on this topic..because those arguements are not only dated, but proved wrong time and time again. If you would like i will show you. |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
Due to the fact that your post is filled with rhetoric, personal attacks and ... yeah that about summed it up, I'm not justifying any of that with a response.
In conclusion, I respect what you believe, I urge you to do the same to others. Contempt for others beliefs is exactly why people have died for them in the past; people like you have filled the churches and crusaded not for God's cause, but for your own. I will hope and pray that one day you will realize there is a God; if not, I will hope that you find it in your heart to accept others beliefs without chastesizing them for it. |
I knew you wouldnt reply...LOL...
I respect what you beleive as well...i just don't like it when creationists, like yourself, claim science is wrong when it is proven facts. Beleiveing what you want is fine by me...i am a Deist...but If someone says soemthing that is patently absurd or a down right lie you have to call them on it.
I never filled ANY church...nor am i an arrogant prick that thinks god watches over my every move.
I do beleive in God...but like i said before...just not your mass-murdering, baby killing sadistic old man in the sky that is described in the bible.:rolleyes: ..Have you actually read the Bible? |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
Yes. When I was atheist, I feared nothing; because I was my own God. I may have feared death, but it was in a "I hope I don't die because I want to be great" sort of way.
Nowadays, I have a fear of God. It is the first step of wisdom; fear of God. |
I am a Deist...so i do beleive in God..but in my own way..do i fear him? absolutley not because i know he does not meddle in are affairs, i know there is no sin, evil or supernaturalism.
I found myself free of fear when i stopped being a Christian. Being a Deist (which i always was but never knew) freed me from all that i detest about religion. Do i fear death? Of course. Does that have to do with religion? Not at all, fearing death is natural..happens to animals as well.
I despise religion because of the way it makes God out to be. That he some vindictive murdering man who casts judgement and blah blah blah...MY God that i beleive in is no such being..Your god however is pure evil. If you read the Bible you will see this.
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
As for traditional fear, as in afraid of earthly things and whatnot; I can say I've been "concerned" - like when I was in Iraq a few months ago and mortars were dropping around me. Afraid though? No, there is a certain tranquil feeling you get knowing you are content with dying. |
Thanks for serving in Iraq, by the way.
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
I believe you can find God through religion or science; it's all about realizing and embracing the fact that something bigger than we can imagine brought it all together. That's actually a big reason I converted to a Diest - I studied quantum mechanics exclusively for a while. It scared the out of me. |
I have noticed a pattern with your posts...you almost always use the word "fear". Now how is religion helping you if you seem to be filled with fear?
I agree something is bigger that brought it all together but i beleive in evolution not creation. I am a natural born cynic and science has always answered my life and worldly questions precisely without supernatural nonsense.
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
If you can study that and think that there isn't some intrensic, greater power behind the universe... well, more power to you. I couldn't. |
Again i am a Deist.:D |
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| Seventil |
| quote: | Originally posted by tiesto14
I knew you wouldnt reply...LOL...
I respect what you beleive as well...i just don't like it when creationists, like yourself, claim science is wrong when it is proven facts. Beleiveing what you want is fine by me...i am a Deist...but If someone says soemthing that is patently absurd or a down right lie you have to call them on it.
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Why do you believe that science and religion are at odds? This has to be one of the worst things that has ever happened to humankind. Science and religion should work together, working hand and hand to find the reason we are here.
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I never filled ANY church...nor am i an arrogant prick that thinks god watches over my every move.
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Eh, I was thinking to myself "hey this guy is reasonable I guess" until the "arrogant prick" comment. Once again, it's that sort of contempt that has driven the church and people into holy wars and crusades against each other, when we should be working together. You say you respect anothers belief; then you call them arrogant pricks for believing in something.
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I do beleive in God...but like i said before...just not your mass-murdering, baby killing sadistic old man in the sky that is described in the bible.:rolleyes: ..Have you actually read the Bible? |
I've studied it extensively. I agree the Old Testament was harsh; the world was different back then. If this is your sole basis on rejecting Christianity... I don't agree with that logic but I respect it. I'm glad you consider yourself a "Diest".
Also... you didn't respond to my five simple scientific and logic comments disproving evolution. Did you miss them, or need more time to comment? |
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| Seventil |
| quote: | Originally posted by tiesto14
I am a Deist...so i do beleive in God..but in my own way..do i fear him? absolutley not because i know he does not meddle in are affairs, i know there is no sin, evil or supernaturalism.
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I can respect that. I myself, although Christian, also believe in "karma" - what goes around, comes around. Although I guess in that logic I could say there is no "sin" - but I believe there is sin in from a Biblical reference.
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I found myself free of fear when i stopped being a Christian. Being a Deist (which i always was but never knew) freed me from all that i detest about religion. Do i fear death? Of course. Does that have to do with religion? Not at all, fearing death is natural..happens to animals as well.
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You completely misunderstood Christianity then. It's not about "fear" - it's about love and grace. Why fear when you sin? You know you sinned, and God forgives you as long as you feel bad about it (repent, so to say). The fear I was speaking about is not a traditional "fear" - more of an awe-inspiring, humble fear that God is in control. Not "I'm afraid" - more of a "this is God's plan" sort of fear.
| quote: |
I despise religion because of the way it makes God out to be. That he some vindictive murdering man who casts judgement and blah blah blah...MY God that i beleive in is no such being..Your god however is pure evil. If you read the Bible you will see this.
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Eh... those are some strong words that I hope you hav a better reason to explain when you are face to face with Him. ;) -- I believe we should talk more about the Old Testament since you really seem to have issues with it. Let me know if you wish to do this; I've debated on the topics of the morality of God, God using people to carry out "his will" and such before.
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I have noticed a pattern with your posts...you almost always use the word "fear". Now how is religion helping you if you seem to be filled with fear?
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I've used fear in only two posts so far, both in response to the "He's in Iraq so no wonder he believes in God, he's afraid" post. To my knowledge, I have not used the word fear in the 50+ previous posts in this thread by me.
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I agree something is bigger that brought it all together but i beleive in evolution not creation. I am a natural born cynic and science has always answered my life and worldly questions precisely without supernatural nonsense.
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Funny you mentioned this. Tell me your thoughts on:
It takes a clever man to turn cynic and a wise man to be clever enough not to.
-Fannie Hurst
and
A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing.
-Oscar Wilde |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
Why do you believe that science and religion are at odds? This has to be one of the worst things that has ever happened to humankind. Science and religion should work together, working hand and hand to find the reason we are here. |
I guess because i do not belive in organized religion. I feel it has done more harm then good in history.
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
Eh, I was thinking to myself "hey this guy is reasonable I guess" until the "arrogant prick" comment. Once again, it's that sort of contempt that has driven the church and people into holy wars and crusades against each other, when we should be working together. You say you respect anothers belief; then you call them arrogant pricks for believing in something. |
Arrogance cause Holy Wars...sorry if what i said came off rude...but i believe thinking that God saved you from a car accident and killed your best friend is arrogant..and countless other scenerios.
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
I've studied it extensively. I agree the Old Testament was harsh; the world was different back then. If this is your sole basis on rejecting Christianity... I don't agree with that logic but I respect it. I'm glad you consider yourself a "Diest". |
The NT is filled with just as much horrific things as the OT. Not too mention the supernaturalism surrounding Jesus. The OT and NT are both God's word according to religous types...and i simply DO NOT and WILL NOT beleive "MY" God is such a cruel heartless being.
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
Also... you didn't respond to my five simple scientific and logic comments disproving evolution. Did you miss them, or need more time to comment? |
No i wasnt sure if they were yours...i will respond to them after i eat dinner and shower..
If you are curious as to what i beleive - here is is EXACTLEY::
You might be familiar with Deism...if not fully read on::
Deism is for those that are fed-up with "organized religion" and being told what to think. In the end it's the individual that must decide. That doesn't make one wrong or damned if they decide to follow another path, there is no hell.
One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, These would be religions where God supposedly spoke to a few select individuals, and then relied on them to accurately write down what he told them in "Holy Books".Basing his belief on the light of nature and reason and not of irrational claims of divine revelation, visions, angels, mysticism, or psuedoscience.
Believe that the Deity imposes no pre-ordained, or divinely inspired moral code of behavior on mankind, but rather expects man to develop his own codes of conduct for living in harmony with his fellow man based on his God-given reason.
They accept what is reasonable and reject what is nonsense. These are true free thinkers who ponder and consider all the facts to draw a conclusion.
It compels a person to take responsibility for his own actions and not to blame it on God, the devil or other spiritual forces
Some view God as an intelligent designer/ creator being, external to the universe and noninvolved with it, while others think of a sustaining force or energy within the universe. Analogies include the blind watchmaker and the absentee landlord.
Believe in a Creator incapable of such misery producing acts as the extermination of men, women, children and even of unborn babies by drowning
Deism is not a religion but a philosophy that emphasizes morality and reason without the need of supervision or benediction of the Creator in our everyday lives.
Deists reject Genesis as myth along with the virgin birth, death atonement, Trinity, miracles, and other beliefs from assorted mystery.
Deists do not accept the divine authority of the bible since there are too many errors and contradictions.
Belief that the Deity does not perform "miracles" which defy the laws of physics, or intervene in a supernatural way in the affairs of mankind. There are things that reason cannot answer.: sorry, no magic tricks.
Deists reject the concept of a personal god that will help one through life's difficulties. God expects us to deal with our problems here and now.
Revealed religions require that you study their books to know God, the Creator. Deism says to study the Creation to know God, the Creator.
Deists deal with the real world today, not try to cut some deal with God for a reward in an afterlife. (Some Deists believe in an afterlife, others don't.) Although there is no scientific evidence for an afterlife, most Deists do have a "hope" for an afterlife.
Deists oppose all forms of religious meddling in people's lives and believe that one's choice of religious beliefs is up to the individual and is a highly personal choice.
We believe that anyone seeking to impose their religious beliefs upon another individual is not only a delusional menace, but is a danger to a free society.
Deists do not attribute human qualities to God and reject those teachings that depicts our Creator as a homicidal maniac who drowns the world in floods (Genesis), kills children just to punish somebody else (Exodus), or presents our Creator as a fool to be outwitted by a mythical serpent.
We're working toward a day when people no longer require irrational beliefs to find meaning and joy in life.
God created the potential for the heavens and earth, and for life, but the details worked themselves out in accordance with the laws laid down by God. It wasn't necessary for God to create each individual species (let alone each individual living thing) in the process called Special Creation. Instead, the Creator provided the seeds of the Universe and of life, and let them develop in their own time.
We believe dogmatic belief systems threaten to destroy our planet through hate, war, and apocalyptic superstition.
Revealed religion was an invention of the priestly caste to subdue, and so the more easily govern and exploit, the ignorant.
They believe that one cannot access God through any organized religion, set of beliefs, rituals, sacraments or other practice.
Deists deny the existence of the Trinity as conceived by Christians. They often view Jesus as a philosopher, rabbi, teacher and healer, but not as the Son of God.
The fear of death is a big motivator for many people to support a particular religion. We all know, without the possibility of doubt, that a day will come for absolutely all of us when we will die. This realization brings fear to many people. Deism teaches that no one knows for certain what happens after death, if anything at all. It teaches that, based on the creation we are all a part of, we shouldn't worry about it. That instead, we should be concerned for the present and future of planet Earth and humanity. That we should work hard to improve life and also enjoy it here and now. Why should we worry about death when we have so much to do in life? And do we think so little of Nature's God that we don't trust Him with our future?
Deists ask questions, we don't just follow.Deists base truth on examination of the facts and derive truth based on that evidence. Christians claim truth then hunt for evidence to prove them right rejecting anything that proves them wrong, even if it's in the bible itself!
Belief that after the Deity created the universe, He stepped away from it to allow it to evolve naturally based on the laws of physics which He created without any need for His further intervention.
Do Deists believe in the Devil? Absolutely not. This is known as dualism or good verses evil, light verse dark, etc. For Christianity and Islam alike, this has been the main excuse for their endless violence and intolerance of others. Combine this with a fanatic belief in getting converts at all cost and an apocalyptic (end times) world view, makes them more dangerous.
Deists believe that God would not reveal himself through man-made, handwritten documents that are prone to forgery, mistakes, absurdities, contradictions and misinterpretation. Instead, Deists believe that Nature is the true, unchangable “Word of God”. Deists believe that it is nature itself that points to a creator, and that anything we can know of God will be discovered there, not in the pages of a book written by man.
Deism also means hope. Knowing that the universe and our lives have design and purpose, we have hope that death may not be the end. With courage, one can only accept the Creator's plans for us after death, for no one has been to the "other world". We don't know where we were before birth, and we just might be in for a great surprise at the fulfillment of life!
Deism offers opportunities revealed religions do not: the right to refuse superstition without fear of retribution and the chance to study fact as fact and not fiction as fact.
The revealed religions encourage people to give up, or at least to suspend, their God-given reason. They like to call it faith. For example, how logical is it to believe that Moses parted the Red Sea, or that Jesus walked on water, or that Mohammed received the Koran from an angel? Suspending your reason enough to believe these tales only sets a precedent that leads to believing a Jim Jones or David Koresh.
Hope you read it... |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Seventil
Quoting Opus... I feel like I am in repeat mode here. Let me try again be reordering the way I've worded things in previous posts.
Here is a picture:
Once again, I'm not saying the evolution timeline is incorrect from a scientific point of view. I'm saying it contrasts the Creation timeline - and since this is an eye witness event, that myself and ALOT of people believe in - I think it should be taken into consideration.
And again, I'm not saying abolish unBiblical scientific research.
What I am saying is that evolutionary theory from a Biblical point of view (Biblical assumptions like I've shown above in the picture) - should be taught along with normal evolutionary theory.
As for your relation to the flat-earth round-earth rubbish, I don't see how that is the same at all. An evolutionary theory with Biblical assumptions, from a Biblical point of view, violates no observable law.
On a side note, I do agree that more testing should be done on the effects of worldwide catastrophes on scientific constants (such as isotope dating and such). Unfortunately, it is extremely hard to reproduce such environments. If you know of any testing of this kind, let me know, I'd like to look at it. |
Sorry for my late reply, I've been otherwise preoccupied. Anyway, your timeline might be valid should there be any scientific evidence that supports it. Your explanation for constants changing are derived from biblical assumptions. You cannot then take those biblical assumptions, insert it back into the scientific model, to arrive at your new model. If there was consistent scientific evidence that supports a changing decay rate, than that in of itself would provide supporting claim to what the bible contends, not the other way around. But as I've said before, nothing has indicated any change in decay rates. Not in what we've seen in Earth and not in what we can observe millions of years ago by examining decay rates in stellar objects.
As for the cogency of my flat earth theory, it too violates no more observable law than creationist theory violates. Your theory presupposes that decay rates changed on the basis of NO scientific evidence. My flat Earth theory supposes that gravitational law and fields change under NO scientific evidence. Just because I don't have a 2000 year old book that's supposedly the word of God to back up my graviational theory doesn't mean that it isn't any more or less valid than yours. According to your reasoning that creationist theory is as equally valid as evolutionary theory of course. |
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| djverne |
In response to tiesto14
comments about the age of Noa and his logic on building the boat and getting the animals to Hybernate, I have One Thing to SAY EVEN AS AN EVOLUTIONIST tiesto14 YOU ARE THE BIGGEST EN DOUCH BAG , Seventil has brought logical arguments yet you are trying to disprove things like you cant build a boat that big or get all those animals. if Seventil believes these events were guided buy god dont you think maybe its logicaly reasonible and consistant in his argument to think that god might help noa out a little, I myself have been presented with alot of VERY good arguments buy both Creationists and Evolutionits as to how men could live live that long and how the popultation of the world could come to what it was at that time. Your comments about most Creasionists not believing in the old ages is bull. And if your gonna represent are evoltuinary cause don't bother because you look like a complete ass with the lies you tell. By the way, I read through the bible a couple of times and while I dont totally understand it, you remarks that the cristian GOD is Evil is complete bull. I saw a Loving God that lines up with what I have seen as the christian doctrin. Seventil while were at opposite ends of the spectrum with are beliefs don't even bother wasting your time with tiesto14 this guys a ing douchbag . I don't usually have much to say but when I see an ignorant human being who only wants to believe on what he inssits is truth even when it might be the same thing I believe) but he his totally willing to disregard the other side and what they have to say and even lies about what he says they believe, it pisses me off. Seventil move on this guys a en DOUCH, you have cleary wone this debate. I'd be happy to trade theories and debate with you some time, I wont how ever make stupid rermarks like tiesto14 and a couples of other people on this thread that will cause you to have to explain yourself 5 times over. |
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