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O'Reilly vs. Moore (pg. 5)
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| DigiNut |
Let's play a little game, called "identify the biased language". Now we all know that any real intellectual, logical argument should just evaluate based on the facts, right? It's normally not my style to pick apart an argument piece by piece as I know it can be very tedious to read, but the opportunity here was just too good to pass up. So here we go:
| quote: | Originally posted by hausmusic
it’s this exact propaganda that people like you want the public to believe. |
Note the use of the word "propaganda" and the phrase "people like you". The words "want...to believe" also imply by their tone that it is untrue, while failing to provide any evidence of this fact. Clearly there is no objectivity to this part of the argument.
| quote: | | Hey buddy reality check |
Ooh, "reality check!" I like that one. Anybody who disagrees is obviously dreaming, right!?
| quote: | | most of America thinks the administration and war was a major fukup. |
A poll, a survey, even a measly statistic, anything to back up this assertion...?
| quote: | | Questioning your government’s actions is the best thing a country can do and it’s what makes it a democracy. |
Note the referral of his own argument as "questioning" alongside the earlier characterization of the opposing argument as "propaganda". Double standard, perhaps?
| quote: | | Just saying that sums up what kind of a person you are. |
Nice, we've got some ad hominem going on here...
| quote: | | You think other people (Iraqi's) don't have a right to fight for their rights? For their homes and oil... |
Poor, poor Iraqis... *sniff* that sentiment almost made me shed one single tear. Almost. Then I started to wonder how this "rights" stuff is even remotely relevant to the debate...
| quote: | | I have a question for a person like you. |
Again we see "a person like you." Judge, jury, and executioner here - lumping this "person" into some particular group. What group, I can only imagine - nuts? Kooks? Intellectuals, maybe?
| quote: | | For a change I would like you to take Iraqi's side in perspective. |
Oh now that's a good one, this paragraph is actually telling us to take someone else's side in a debate. Pure brilliance! Hey everybody, I know you disagree with me, but just take my side for a minute and you'll understand!
| quote: | | Tell me if you think putting a fraud President |
Back to the daily grind of accusations we go! Fraud, yes, of course! Why wasn't he brought up on criminal charges again? Only hausmusic knows the answer to that!
| quote: | | who is not democratically elected to run your country |
Hussein, on the other hand, was clearly democratically elected, yes? ;)
| quote: | | and do things which you don’t want, things that are not good for your national identity? Would you like that? …. |
The national identity! Could we have picked a term that's any more vague and subjective? Just exactly what IS a national identity anyway?
So let me ask you hausmusic... I've pointed out the bias in your argument, now would you care to point out the facts (or at least basic logic) in it?
Or maybe you're just a big doody-head talking through his poo-poo hole who can't string together a complete sentence, let alone a coherent argument.
Damn Canadian airheads. |
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| hausmusic |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Not at all. Although the anti-war movement is definitely a left-wing one, it is by no means radical - I myself have very mixed feelings about the subject.
The "radical" part comes with the outrageous claims like:
- BUSH LIED
- BUSH IS A TERRORIST
- BUSH IS CENSORING THE NEWS ON THE WAR
- EVERYONE HATES AMERICANS
- SADDAM WAS A SAINT AND DID NO WRONG
- IRAQIS AREN'T COMMITTING TERRORISM, THEY'RE JUST REBELLING AGAINST THE USA'S IMPERIALISTIC OPPRESSION
Or just incredibly stupid questions, like:
- Would YOU send YOUR children out to die? (What a ludicrous question - you can't "send" your children out to war, it's not UP to you sacrifice someone *else's* life)
- WHERE ARE THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION?
- What's taking Iraq so long to rebuild their entire shattered economy into a fully developed country?
Everyone SHOULD be able to see just how inane these questions and platitudes are - and if you can't, then you really are a radical liberal (or maybe just plain ignorant).
I've heard many an intelligent person talk about why they were against the war, and they made some very good points. Michael Moore isn't one of them - he can't even keep his facts consistent, let alone true. And his supporters in this thread are doing him no credit with their positively sloppy debating.
Believe me, I'm the last person to call someone else a radical just because I disagree with them. But I'm hearing a lot of radical bull in this thread, I'm sorry to say. |
Explain to me why asking the MAIN reason for going to war is a radical Question? I.e. WHERE ARE THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION?
I seriously doubt you are the "last person to call someone else a radical just because I disagree with them"
The question would you send your children to war means how would you feel if you made a decision that means sending you child to war or saying at home.
HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT IT! RETARD
You won't feel good obviously if the reason for going to war is one you do not agree with.
Show me where someone called Sadaam a saint?
Show me where someone called bush a terrorist?
America is controlling Iraq's Oil; they haven’t legally entered the country. Just to let you know
EVERYONE HATES the American government!! And their policies (Most people not everyone)
Ok I want you to think. Did you see the footage on Moore’s movie? Forget the moral of the story. DID you see the footage before? Now because you didn’t doesn’t that mean that you did not receive the whole truth? It’s because his administration wanted a positive outlook on the war.
I HAVE NOT SEEN MOORE’S movie. All my info is based on real facts and what I can see on BBC and CBC, which is information enough for me to decide that the Bush Administration messed up. |
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| hausmusic |
doo doo head an poo poo hole? stfu
http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm
Here digifuk
Read it
I don't have any more energy. You spent all that time analyzing my writing. What a fukup hahah lol. That’s your part in the debate?
What I meant by national identity was your culture, your history, your religion, your way of doing things, your interests. |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by hausmusic
Man I don’t know how to break this to you but Bush is responsible for the deaths of children. When the war was waged its well-documented fact (NOT FROM MOORE) that all the Iraq insurgents merged into the city. Only a few Palaces were destroyed and the rest are still in use not by the people of Iraq but by the US f***ing Military. |
"well-documented fact"?....link please, article please, briefing please, anything to back that up please....if it is WELL-documented then it won't take you too long...
| quote: | Originally posted by hausmusic
The military has used chemical weapons in Baghdad which will remain in the atmosphere for years. Causing many forms of respiratory diseases. |
Where did you get this from?...
What kind of chemical weapons?
Just in Baghdad?
Respiratory diseases?
can you back that up?
| quote: | Originally posted by hausmusic
You know what we see on TV here in Canada we see how sorry your lives are in America... post 9/11 your government has built a new chapter on propaganda far worse than the nazis and ever Hitler could ever do.. |
Sick...now you compare the US government to the Third Reich?...do you take medication?..And um i do not think you have any understanding of the sort of propaganda that Hitler used..but whatever eh!
| quote: | Originally posted by hausmusic
You need to read facts!.. |
you need to post some.
| quote: | Originally posted by hausmusic
And what are O'rielly's arguments? Who gives a ? Bush didn’t tell the truth any excuse O'reilly made where hardly sufficiant to excuse bush. You weren’t part of the millions of people around the world that protested the war; bush made sure you didn’t see much of that.!.. |
Yes , yes...Bush and his coherts yelled and screamed at Rupert Murdoch not to show the protests on his news channels so we would be blinded....are you out of your friggen mind? i saw all the protests on Fox, CNN, CNBC, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, FNC, NBC, BBC..all on my American television...i saw lots of that...
| quote: | Originally posted by hausmusic
Umm. You just wont get it will you. Before Americans could travel the world received by everyone with open arms. Now try and go anywhere everyone hates Americans. You don’t call beheading of Americans a threat. These people didn’t appear out of thin air, they are there because of America because of its government's policies. You don’t call kidnapping of Japanese; Chinese & Pakistani people a threat. You don’t call the bombing in Spain a threat. .!.. |
This is funny....
beheading Americans...ok ok..where is that happening numb nuts?..RIGHT RIGHT in Iraq..and i totally forgot pre-war in Iraq Americans were ALWAYS embraced with warm and loving admiration when they walked through Iraq..
Everyone hates America?...not quite...maybe everyone hates the Bush administration...but i dont think any living soul can really deny that America is the land of oppurtunity...it has its problems liek the next country ..no country is infallible.
Those beheaders have been around since the Afghan-Soviet war...before there was Taliban or Al Queda...stop pulling facts out of thin air.
| quote: | Originally posted by hausmusic
Ok so what your saying is that we should let the US government be the governing body of the world that makes all decisions and has the right to choose the fate of children around the world. Okaaay~.!.. |
thats a tough one....no we should not govern..but when intervention is needed and no one else has the balls to help out then yes America should intervene...for example we should of gone into Rwanda faster...cus God knows Canada didnt have the balls..
| quote: | Originally posted by hausmusic
I'm going to explain again pay attention this time.
Suicide bombings/beheadings = al-qaeda
Insurgents = Iraqi people (men women children Muslims and Christians) who want US out they do not kill their own that’s what your media wants you to believe... or probably what you want to believe.~.!.. |
It's not just AL-Qaeda...there is also Al Martyrs Brigade or whatever those maniacs are called.
Oh and there has been NO uprisings in Iraq since the start of the war...
| quote: | Originally posted by hausmusic
Why don’t YOU try and prove to me that the same or even half or even quarter amount of people would have died (since the war in Iraq) if Sadaam was in power. Plus Look up for translation of insurgents they don’t kill their own. .~.!.. |
I know i am tlaking about before the war..but the same would be going on today if Husseinw as still in power...FACT!..so it is VERY relivant.
Human Rights Watch concluded that 290,000 Iraqis have disappeared under Hussein’s control over the past decade and a half.
Or how, since the start of the war, the remains of some 400,000 people have been found in mass graves. This rivals 1994’s Rwandan genocide.
How about the countless confessions of Iraqi torture?
Then there are the eyewitness accounts of people shot and thrown into trenches, others burned alive on 20 foot wide piles of tires.
And let’s not forget how the Kurds where used as guinei pigs for Saddam’s chemical and biological testing, or do you not know that he wiped out entire towns - men, women, children and animals?
Iraq’s Mass graves get almost no attention, the protestors and liberals prefer to discuss unseen WMDs than obvious scenes of mass death. This is proven by the Nexis database which shows from January 1, 2004 to July 7, 2004 that America’s so-called best paper, The New York Times, had 260 references to Iraq and “weapons of mass destruction” yet only 6 to Iraq and “mass graves”.
It’s far easier to slam Bush on Iraq while some 400,000 Iraqis would loudly defend him, but instead are busy decomposing.
| quote: | Originally posted by hausmusic
Its not religion, Al qaeda is made up of Muslims but the people protesting against America are of every religion. And their reason is united. |
About protestors...someone posted this a long time ago..not sure who:
Let's face it, protestors are like pop music. They protest whatever is the flavor of the month. How many protests do you hear about Tibet nowadays? Not cool anymore? China? Nothing's gonna change so why protest. The atrocities in North Korea? Ah not publisized enough. Women's rights in the middle east? The gender revolution is over. How many people protested when the world came the closest it's been to nuclear war since the cold war? Anybody remember that whole spat when India & Pakistan almost went to war? Too stupid to realize how significant that was. Nobody protests a dictatorship anymore because their lazy ... they know nothings going to happen. Ahhh but a democracy ... there's where the action is. What's the flavor of the month for the 21st century? Big government. G8 summits, WTO meetings, globalization. Gimme a break, like there aren't actually people suffering that they can't protest about??? What about Africa? If people's protest's reflected world conditions, 99.9% of all protests would revolve around civil wars, poverty, starvation & the Aids crisis in Africa. But eh who really cares about a few million Africans anymore? Cmon that was a 80's thing. |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by hausmusic
The question would you send your children to war means how would you feel if you made a decision that means sending you child to war or saying at home.
HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT IT! RETARD
You won't feel good obviously if the reason for going to war is one you do not agree with. |
American soldiers are NOT forced to sign up...the military is 100000% volintary.....No parent sends any child to war..the arguement is bunk.
Soldiers DO NOT have the right to agree or disagree with the war...they signed the dotted line...they should do their job and protect their country..thats what they signed up for...
| quote: | Originally posted by hausmusic
I HAVE NOT SEEN MOORE’S movie. All my info is based on real facts and what I can see on BBC and CBC, which is information enough for me to decide that the Bush Administration messed up. |
LoL BBC?....ya their not America bashers....thats like me saying i know the facts because i watch Fox News and that shows me how messed up John Kerry is....lol...
Please stop taking Chomsky out of your library...he is an evil evil man ...lol |
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| policerobots |
I liked it when Moore said he would find the one man who killed the 3000 people on US soil. It is a good example of the idealistic views liberals have on this world. How are you going to just find one man whos running around in different countries? It would be nice to just find him and capture him, but realistically its impossible.
Everyone knows when a war happens people die. does anyone like to hear the news when people die? no. But some realize that war is just a reality in the world, as it has been for thousands of years, and sometimes it just has to be used.
its just sad that all of these terrorist things have piled up for the past 20 years and we are finally trying to do something about it now. |
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| hausmusic |
http://www.internationalanswer.org/pdf/DUIraq-703.pdf
US use Depleted Uranium in Bagdad which is known to cause respiratory diseases...
You dont have to tell me Hussain was a brutal dictator but as you can see i proved my point that A LOT more people would be living if Hussain was still in power.
It's not a fact but I've traveled alot and most of the people I meet hate 'Americans in the government' as i said, not 'America' as you said. I'm not going to post a whole long article about how and why people hate Americans google it under 'USA mistrust' or around that you should have no problem getting a lot of stuff.
| quote: | | Those beheaders have been around since the Afghan-Soviet war...before there was Taliban or Al Queda |
is that a fact. And who trained Osama Bin Laden?
Listen from one human being to another it's not about balls. Any jackoff can pull a trigger. Its about choosing the democratic and productive way. You have to be more mature about things like this. Otherwise you create enimies which respond by killing your own.
Canada doesnt have an army and hopefully will not need it cause we look for a peacefull solution. YOu dont see us getting any terror threats do you?. I wonder why that is?
You have to have better solutions than sanctions and war. Your talking about balls as if you have them. Your not in Iraq so STFU. If you went you would see what its like first hand, your sitting back relaxed while other families are sending their kids. YES it doesnt take a scientist to figure out you volunteer for the war. Dont most people enlist in the researves to cover costs of college and stuff... they dont expect to go to war. Its 2004 wer not savages.
| quote: | | Human Rights Watch concluded that 290,000 Iraqis have disappeared under Hussein’s control over the past decade and a half. |
Site that
People have aids rallies to get money to find a cure for aids. WHy would they need to protest Aids.
India and Pakistan ?? Nuclear war?
Well they didnt go to war and now have the best relations since partition. Pakistan and India are both democratic countries... and what?
well its all inter related isnt it. America gives money for something in return. Its never a generous helping hand its always a headlock... countries like Pakistan end up suffering because the US controls them financially.
forget it believe what you want I don't think Bush's depature will make much of a difference. As long as there are no more wars thats all I care about. |
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| LiquidX |
| quote: | Originally posted by policerobots
I liked it when Moore said he would find the one man who killed the 3000 people on US soil. It is a good example of the idealistic views liberals have on this world. How are you going to just find one man whos running around in different countries? It would be nice to just find him and capture him, but realistically its impossible.
Everyone knows when a war happens people die. does anyone like to hear the news when people die? no. But some realize that war is just a reality in the world, as it has been for thousands of years, and sometimes it just has to be used.
its just sad that all of these terrorist things have piled up for the past 20 years and we are finally trying to do something about it now. |
I'll tell you. US main goal before the War on Iraq was to find Bin Ladin in Afghanistan ( where he was supposedly hiding ), and all of the sudden, we went for Iraq.. what did Saddam have to do with Iraq?!?! Nothing, No proofs nor evidence on this matter, and you could find this on the 9/11 Commission report if ANY of yuo DARE to say.. Evidence Evidence please. All Investigative agencies said they never SAID that Iraq had links to Bin Ladin's.
Now, for obvious reasons.. as historians once said. If we enter Iraq with no real reason and try to input something that the middle east is not used to, or change the way they view tings ( Democracy in this case ) .. we would do the opposite, create more hate and therefore strengthen terrorism, and you want evidence?!?!..well, it's all over the news. Iraq is the meltingpot for terrorism, hence every group that hates americans, has entered there to fight us... and Al Quaeda has just grown. Because of the War on Iraq, we took a lot of intelligence out from searching Bin Ladin to focus on Iraq.. getting out of it nothing, but yeah, right wings will say.. " We Took a Dictator Out, A Malicious Dictator".. Ok, how many Mailicous dictators there are in the freaking world, we got Neighbors such as Chavez and Fidel Castro.. not to mention North Korea which is a REAL threat to the US. Secondly, was taking a Malicious dictator the purpose for the war?!?!NOOOO !!! Bush clearly said that it was " THE WEAPONS OF MASS DISTRUCTION!!!!" .. so its not a lefty propaganda, it wass BUSH's propaganda, now everyone asks.. WTF happened to those weapons?!?! THAT was the mere reason.. but now, since he messed up so baaaaad, the only good reason is.. " WE TOOK A BAD DICTATOR OUT".. and thats all you guys can come up to back up your supported war on IRaq. SMART Smart. |
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| LiquidX |
| quote: | Originally posted by Orbital32
you know i'm think i'm going to vote for Bush... ONLY cuz i hate Micheal Moore so much. I don't belive in the way he "represents" me. If he would asked me if i should send my son (if i had one) to iraq i would say no. Nobody wants to send their kids to war. BUT that is not my choice to make. When my kid turns 18 he is legally and morally old enough to make his own decision. I would support their decision, not tell them they are going to die in vain. |
Allright. I get your point, but voting for someone else ( either candidate ) just because you hate Moore.. its plain rediculous.. the most rediculous post Ive read so far.. as if we are all voting because of Moore.. Riiiighttt..:rolleyes:
PS: Moore is an extremist Lefty.. I do not agree with some of the things he presented, I just believe he gave a really good point that many people are blindly to see, only here in America. |
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| Shakka |
Oh no...not the depleted uranium again. There are some threads in this post debunking a lot of that if I'm not mistaken.
Here's One
Occrider has added a link to the WHO for information on depleted uranium. I take it you got your information from the flash video. Don't believe everything you see on the Internet--especially if it's animated. Be glad they're not fighting with enriched uranium! |
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| MisterOpus1 |
Cripes man, I get wrapped up in those long-winded Creationist/Evolutionist threads, and look at all the gems I have to pass up!
Ehh, the debate between these two idiots is a blowhard match of extremist bull. I honestly hope they bring knives next time - I doubt the world would lose too much sleep if they both murdered one another.
As for the DU thingy, ehh, I personally have a difficult time putting my trust in everything conducted by the Pentagon, even the WHO. Politics always gives a gray area on these particular issues, and unfortunately it's no different in regards to health issues. But I will take the WHO and Royal Society reports at face value and concede their findings to a large extent.
But damnit, I just can't seem to find my tin foil hat anywhere? Y'all know where it is?:
http://www.sundayherald.com/print40096
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/050104D.shtml
MUUHAAAHAAAHAAAA!!!!! |
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| BadBadNeil |
| quote: | | Originally posted by hausmusic |
| quote: | | Umm. You just wont get it will you. Before Americans could travel the world received by everyone with open arms. Now try and go anywhere everyone hates Americans. You don’t call beheading of Americans a threat. These people didn’t appear out of thin air, they are there because of America because of its government's policies. You don’t call kidnapping of Japanese; Chinese & Pakistani people a threat. You don’t call the bombing in Spain a threat. |
I get it just fine. Those people aren't Americans, they are foreigners. You explicitly said American's are less safe. American's in general are not less safe. Sure American's within Iraq are less safe. Bombings happen every day around the world and have happened for years before 9/11 and before the war in Iraq. Bombers will use any current event as an excuse to attack anyone at anytime.
| quote: | | Ok so what your saying is that we should let the US government be the governing body of the world that makes all decisions and has the right to choose the fate of children around the world. Okaaay~ . |
No, I'm saying the UN didn't pass a resolution against the war. I'm just stating facts. Sure lots of the UN members didn't agree with the war but in the end it didn't show up in the UN. You are twisting what I am saying.
| quote: | I'm going to explain again pay attention this time.
Suicide bombings/beheadings = al-qaeda
Insurgents = Iraqi people (men women children Muslims and Christians) who want US out they do not kill their own that’s what your media wants you to believe... or probably what you want to believe. |
I always pay attention. So now you say that Al-Qaeda is in Iraq, before they weren't in Iraq. Make up your mind. Insurgents who target American forces with roadside bombs and other attacks have killed hundreds of their own people, it happens on a daily basis. Do you honestly believe that all the attacks which killed Iraquis was Al-Qaida. Please don't be so naive. Also please leave the media out of it, thats such a childish response to an argument. Don't act like your media is the high and mighty news authority on the world.
| quote: | | Why don’t YOU try and prove to me that the same or even half or even quarter amount of people would have died (since the war in Iraq) if Sadaam was in power. Plus Look up for translation of insurgents they don’t kill their own. |
I base this on the mass graves found in Iraq and the testimony of the people on tv in Iraq who have lost their loved ones. You can find the video yourself if you wish. If not then you can believe what you will.
| quote: |
I could go on trying to make endless arguments but I realize now the extent of this propaganda you people get. It's seriously sickening you don’t know or you don’t want to know what’s really going on in the world around you. You don’t understand the issues obviously for anyone to understand the issues you have to look on both sides of the story. Just for a minute think about why everyone in the world got together and made America look from Saviors to the Condemned. It's not politically motivated its not helping the Democrats if America looks like . Its not religion, Al qaeda is made up of Muslims but the people protesting against America are of every religion. And their reason is united. |
Again the propaganda argument. You don't understand that no ones forces us to do anything. We are free to read the papers we wish, view the news we wish, read the internet for news. The only thing sickening is that you base your arguments on the opinion that Americans are not as well informed as you.
People got together because they don't like war. NO one likes war because people die. But what do you protest now? You can't protest the war, because the confilct against a known enemy is done. Will you protest the rebuilding of Iraq? That is the current phase what is done is done and from this point on the focus is to make Iraq safe, have its own government, and get our troops the hell out of there.
People of many races protest many things from ecological to military to wars to starvation to aids and disease. People protest because they are for or against something and you can't please everyone no matter the cause. |
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