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French attempt not to surrender (pg. 3)
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| BadBadNeil |
| quote: | Originally posted by Spacey Orange
That is absolute nonsense. Do you not remember the Balkans? The Tianamen Massacre? East Timor? The Chinese annexation of Tibet? Apartheid? Rwanda? |
A few civlian deaths worldwide that no one heard about because all people complain about is the US and Israel
Algeria - 50 civilians killed by rebels over ramadan 2004, hundreds killed over the past few months
Angola - civil war has been going on, many have been killed as the UNITA rebels have displaced over a million people.
Liberia - in the rioting in October riots broke out amidst the power struggle between the major factions, the government, LURD and MODEL rebels. 18 killed, hundreds injured.
Nigeria - more political voilence, days of rioting including political rival mobs battling in the streets. Police let them fight each other.
Rwanda - civil war killed 5% of the population+. In october the UN identifies the group who killed 160 refugees.
Somalia - estimates this year conclude that 300,000 people have died in the last 14 years of civli war. 55,000+ militiamen are thought to roam the streets.
Sudan - to date 70,000 people have died in darfur while the government does nothing to stop it.
Nepal - civilians who have joined the maoist rebels out of fear have been killed. A third of the rebel force is women. In november, on the 8th they kindapped 10 children, in several clashes over 20 were killed.
Thailand - 85 moslim protestors were killed in november. In retaliation the moslems killed 12 non moslem civlians. So far over 500 killed this year so far.
Mexico - Zapatista rebels have taken control of 30 towns and villages and numerous criminal gangs in chiapas have killed over 21 people.
This doesn't even include civil war and rebel factions displacing people from their homes in nearly every african country, indonesia, phillipines, sri lanka, haiti or the unknown number of killings in such hotbeds as north korea or columbia or the terrorist killings of civlians in places such as the netherlands or georgia. |
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| priveye03 |
| quote: | Originally posted by BadBadNeil
A few civlian deaths worldwide that no one heard about because all people complain about is the US and Israel
Algeria - 50 civilians killed by rebels over ramadan 2004, hundreds killed over the past few months
Angola - civil war has been going on, many have been killed as the UNITA rebels have displaced over a million people.
Liberia - in the rioting in October riots broke out amidst the power struggle between the major factions, the government, LURD and MODEL rebels. 18 killed, hundreds injured.
Nigeria - more political voilence, days of rioting including political rival mobs battling in the streets. Police let them fight each other.
Rwanda - civil war killed 5% of the population+. In october the UN identifies the group who killed 160 refugees.
Somalia - estimates this year conclude that 300,000 people have died in the last 14 years of civli war. 55,000+ militiamen are thought to roam the streets.
Sudan - to date 70,000 people have died in darfur while the government does nothing to stop it.
Nepal - civilians who have joined the maoist rebels out of fear have been killed. A third of the rebel force is women. In november, on the 8th they kindapped 10 children, in several clashes over 20 were killed.
Thailand - 85 moslim protestors were killed in november. In retaliation the moslems killed 12 non moslem civlians. So far over 500 killed this year so far.
Mexico - Zapatista rebels have taken control of 30 towns and villages and numerous criminal gangs in chiapas have killed over 21 people.
This doesn't even include civil war and rebel factions displacing people from their homes in nearly every african country, indonesia, phillipines, sri lanka, haiti or the unknown number of killings in such hotbeds as north korea or columbia or the terrorist killings of civlians in places such as the netherlands or georgia. |
good post. |
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| Spacey Orange |
In several posts above [quoting is over-rated] BadBadNeil wrote "No one cares about anyone else killing civilians if it isn't the USA or Israel" and Reverend_Trance concurred.
I disagreed with that claim and I listed several examples where at least someone cared about civilians being killed and where the US and Israel were not involved. BadBadNeil even support my claim (which contradicts his own!) by citing even more examples where at least someone cared about civilians being killed and where the US and Israel were not ivolved.
End of discussion; there are cases where people care about the killing of civilians where the USA or Israel are not involved. In this respect, the comments of Izzy, DrUg_Tit0, MisterOpus1 are superfluous.
If BadBadNeil had claimed: "No one cares enough about anyone else killing civilians if it isn't the USA or Israel" or "Other killing of civilians not by USA or Israel do not get the same attention in the media", then the comments by Izzy, DrUg_Tit0, MisterOpus1 would be relevant and I might even agree. However, BadBadNeil never claimed that. |
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| DJ Lucas |
the point they are trying to make is that when civilians are killed in a situation where the US is involed, the press is quick to demonize the US. if the french kill civilians in the ivory coast, the media turns a blind eye.
do you disagree? |
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| Kzwei |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Lucas
the point they are trying to make is that when civilians are killed in a situation where the US is involed, the press is quick to demonize the US. if the french kill civilians in the ivory coast, the media turns a blind eye.
do you disagree? |
i have heard all of civilians killed in Iraq by any major American news corporation
and the various newspapers which might have mentioned the death toll of 100,000 are more matter of fact than demonizing |
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| razmataz |
Well, I believe there is a certain vicious circle here. If it is true that no one cares about civilian deaths apart from those involving the U.S. and/or Israel than that it is wholly a product of the media system that is largely dominated by stations based in the U.S. and U.K. I get all my news from bbc, cnn, financial times and yahoo. If they do not report civilian deaths than I will likely not hear of it as I don't actually go out of my way to search for deaths in the different parts of the world.
The way I see it, the power is with the media moguls to expose the different crimes against humanity. But since "America/Israel vs Arabs" is currently the most profitable, with everyone keen on having their own take on the subject than unfortunately other news will only be second-nature to that.
Just as soon as this war with Iraq is done and dusted I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that crimes against humanity in North Korea will be all the rage. The same was the case with Afghanistan. No one cares about it anymore. |
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| Spacey Orange |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Lucas
the point they are trying to make is that when civilians are killed in a situation where the US is involed, the press is quick to demonize the US. if the french kill civilians in the ivory coast, the media turns a blind eye.
do you disagree? |
I am well aware of the point that they are trying to make, but sloppy writing and thinking is unacceptable.
Yes, I disagree. I concur with Kzwei. The US press does not demonize the US adminstration when civilians are killed in Iraq. Where is the outrage expressed in the media over the approximately 100,000 civilans killed? Any criticism of the US policy is quickly and wrongly (but quite effectively) rebuffed as a criticism of Americans, much like you have done here, and many others do here as well. A criticism of US adminstration policy, is not a criticism of Americans in general, only the policies and policy-makers.
Insofar as the lack of interest in the French Ivory Coast conflict, part of it is due to the overwhelming presence of the Iraq war. There is only so much time and space to cover world events, and the potential consequences of the Iraq-US war merit such attention. I don't have a problem if the Iraq-US war garners 95% of the media coverage and the French-Ivory Coast conflict only garners 5%. Another explanation for the lack of interest, I believe, is that many in the world (Americans more so) simply don't care about Africa and its issues, as I stated in a post above. |
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| BadBadNeil |
sloppy writing and thinking? I don't think anyone in this forum gets to ride the high horse.
the comment that first made is the truth but was made initially in a sarcastic manner out of frustration. Every time the united states or israel makes one mistake or causes a civilian death on this globe the news is all over it, the people all over the world protest, and the people on this forum get their panties all in a bunch.
You express outrage at 100,000 iraqis being dead in iraq (which is just an very rough estimate), yet how many of those were caused by the insurgents themselves? The critisism lacks when an iraqi blows up a car and kills 100 of his own people but when a soldier kills a single civlian the world is in outrage. This was never about critisizing american citizens.
As for a lack of interest in other affairs, well you can only be interested in something that you know anything about and if most people are unaware of events happening in the corners and niches of this globe then how can they make a judgement whether or not they are interested or not. It is also wrong to conclude that the US is uninterested in Africa solely based on their not being news, especially when our citizens and government contribute more than most if not all the countries on this planet. I think most people realize that Africans are starving but not the details that surround the starvations and killings. Perhaps it is not necessary to know the details, perhaps it is enough to know times are bad there and you want to help in any means possible, whether it is sending food or a few pennies a day.
be be continued when i have more time |
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| ierxium |
Quoting is overrated? Since when?
The US is in war right now. Not many countries supported the war at first or the process that this country chose. Well, Poland was a strong supporter from the start. :D I hate entirely serious comments.
As a result you have all the attention going to what the US is doing. One can't do anything about it. It's a world issue whether you like it or not. Other issues will take second place. You have to take under consideration the fact that newspapers around the world must focus on the important events. War is an important event. So everything related to it has to be reported in big letters and with pictures that will capture your attention. It's business.
If you want to know about killings on other parts of the world you have to rely on local newspapers or whatever local source you trust most. You can't be mad at others for not doing the same.
Many people don't care about world issues. All the information they take is from the TV News. So how can you blame people for not showing interest when they have their own lives to live? You can't expect people to be interested about everything that is going on. Like in many countries, you have few people that have a decent knowledge about what is going on around the world. Then you have those that have a crippled knowledge of what is going on. And then you have those that simply know nothing but the current top story of the day which they will forget the next day.
There will always be a lack of interest, but not for all people.
You talk about the US media. This country has news shows and newspapers everywhere. You have more newspapers than 13-year old girls that are virgins in this country. It's just how it is. So it's a competition to provide the top news. Top news! The media is also a business. |
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| Kzwei |
| quote: | Originally posted by BadBadNeil
The critisism lacks when an iraqi blows up a car and kills 100 of his own people but when a soldier kills a single civlian the world is in outrage.
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Iraq insurgents are not criticized? I believe they are, along with extremists from around teh world. Islam is being criticized. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by BadBadNeil
sloppy writing and thinking? I don't think anyone in this forum gets to ride the high horse.
the comment that first made is the truth but was made initially in a sarcastic manner out of frustration. Every time the united states or israel makes one mistake or causes a civilian death on this globe the news is all over it, the people all over the world protest, and the people on this forum get their panties all in a bunch.
You express outrage at 100,000 iraqis being dead in iraq (which is just an very rough estimate), yet how many of those were caused by the insurgents themselves? The critisism lacks when an iraqi blows up a car and kills 100 of his own people but when a soldier kills a single civlian the world is in outrage. This was never about critisizing american citizens. |
a death of an american/westerner get SOOO much more attention in the median than the death of an iraqi, you cannot deny that. And a great majority of the people think that the "terrorists" in iraq are animals, yet the americans have killed more civilians than the "terrorists".
| quote: | | As for a lack of interest in other affairs, well you can only be interested in something that you know anything about and if most people are unaware of events happening in the corners and niches of this globe then how can they make a judgement whether or not they are interested or not. It is also wrong to conclude that the US is uninterested in Africa solely based on their not being news, especially when our citizens and government contribute more than most if not all the countries on this planet. I think most people realize that Africans are starving but not the details that surround the starvations and killings. Perhaps it is not necessary to know the details, perhaps it is enough to know times are bad there and you want to help in any means possible, whether it is sending food or a few pennies a day. |
well, the EU pays about 3 times as more in support for africa than the US, so bad argument.
and the lack of interest of africa is that people get blunt, there have always been war there, why care? on the other hand when the US attacks iraq, that is something new, and it includes our culture so it is highly more interesting. besides, ivory coast has been in the news quite a lot lately, at least at bbc and similair stations. |
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| BadBadNeil |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
a death of an american/westerner get SOOO much more attention in the median than the death of an iraqi, you cannot deny that. And a great majority of the people think that the "terrorists" in iraq are animals, yet the americans have killed more civilians than the "terrorists". |
That is obvious though, we are western countries so coverage of a western person would get more covereage. I'm sure in Iraq they are showing pictures of Mohammed or whoever was killed in the most recent attacks. The comparison wasn't who was getting killed, it was the people committing the killing and an American soldier will get more much more heat for killing a civilian than an insurgent who kills the same iraqi and this same soldier will get more heat than a rebel who kills 100 people in another part of the world for many of the reasons you mentioned in your other paragraph, that war has been around so long that people become numb to it.
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well, the EU pays about 3 times as more in support for africa than the US, so bad argument. |
But you are talking like the EU is a country which it is not. It is several smaller countries under an umbrella organization. The point however is not about fickle arguing about who sends more aid, the point was that the US does care about Africa and it's people, we have commercials about sending aid to africa all the time here and when I was in school each student had collection boxes to collect money for african children. Perhaps all the minute details are not known but enough is known to decide to give money and resources. |
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