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Gotta love socialism. German Jobless rate hits new record (12.6%) (pg. 2)
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by igottaknow
Since I don't know how Germany calculates unemployment I'll only comment on the US. The "unemployment rate" doesn't acurately repressent unemployment.
Case in point:
I worked for a company +3 years, then left to work as a contractor for a year then got hired full-time for the company I was contracting for. Five months later I got layed off. I was denied unemployment because I worked for too short of a time at the company that layed me off and my contract work wasn't elligible because it's classified as self-employment. So for the year it took me to find another full-time job, the government never considered me "unemployed". For the 6+ month period after I graduated college I also wasn't considered unemployed either. Go figure? |
one fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish!
I'm afraid you're making the same mistake MisterOpus was making. From your personal experience, you were inelligible for unemployment benefits. However, if you were one of the individuals the BLS samples in its household survey, you would indeed be considered as unemployed and would be factored into the unemployment rate. Methadology used by the household survey:
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Unemployment:
Unemployed persons are all those who had no employment during the reference week, were available for work, except for temporarily illness, and had made specific efforts to find employment some time during the 4-week-period ending with the reference week. Persons who were waiting to be recalled to a job from which they had been laid off need not have been looking for work to be classified as unemployed. Also included in the unemployed are: a) persons on temporary lay-off without pay; b) persons who were seeking and available for work but were subject to compulsory schooling or were retired and receiving a pension; c) full or part-time students seeking full or part-time work.
http://laborsta.ilo.org/applv8/data/ssm3/e/US.html
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What the unemployment rate calculated in the US doesn't represent are those who are underemployed, but you're not going to be able to find that captured in any unemployment rate calculated by any other country. |
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| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
What the unemployment rate calculated in the US doesn't represent are those who are underemployed, but you're not going to be able to find that captured in any unemployment rate calculated by any other country. |
My point is unemployment is determined by whether you meet the government's criteria. Since all countries don't use the same criteria you're comparing apples to oranges.
Even if the criteria were the same for Germany and the US there are more important factors to take into account, like the reintegration of East Germany. This no doubt would have a profound impact on the unemployment rate. So to blame it on socialism is ridiculous. |
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| Shakka |
| quote: | Originally posted by igottaknow
My point is unemployment is determined by whether you meet the government's criteria. Since all countries don't use the same criteria you're comparing apples to oranges. |
Since the government is the one hypothetically paying the unemployment benefits, shouldn't it be their criteria that is used to determine who qualifies? |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by igottaknow
Even if the criteria were the same for Germany and the US |
Occrider pointed out yes, the crieria is basically the same for German and the US. You are comparing apples with apples.
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there are more important factors to take into account, like the reintegration of East Germany. This no doubt would have a profound impact on the unemployment rate. So to blame it on socialism is ridiculous. |
Huh, blame reintergration of East Germany eh? I coulda sworn that almost happened 20 years ago... Wonder why it was never a big issue on unemployment until now (record low since post 1930s)...
I'm not saying its socialism par say, but it is defintely the fault of German politics and the German "system". |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
Since the government is the one hypothetically paying the unemployment benefits, shouldn't it be their criteria that is used to determine who qualifies? |
Shakka!:whip: And you call yourself a conservative.:mad:
The government doesn't have money, therefore it can't pay for anything. Taxes pay for the goverment! And guess who pays taxes? The people. ;)
Come on- I can't believe you fell into that hippie-trap.:toothless |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by igottaknow
My point is unemployment is determined by whether you meet the government's criteria. Since all countries don't use the same criteria you're comparing apples to oranges.
Even if the criteria were the same for Germany and the US there are more important factors to take into account, like the reintegration of East Germany. This no doubt would have a profound impact on the unemployment rate. So to blame it on socialism is ridiculous. |
How much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?
I never said that the blame for Germany's unemployment woes is socialism, nor am I arguing about unemployment benefits. I'm merely arguing that the unemployment rate difference between Germany and the US is not due to a statistical methodological differences in how the unemployment rate is calculated. Who the government considers as unemployed is roughly comprable between the two countries because I actually looked at the methodology used, therefore it's erroneous to suggest that Germany has a similar labor market to the US and that the BLS simply hides that fact through statistical fudging. It's not apples and oranges it's more like red apples and green apples. Any economist will tell you that Germany has some serious economic woes with its labor market and the woes of the US labor market doesn't hold a candle compared to it. The causes are numerous, part of which is due to needed social reform along taxation reform, reform of the corporate environment within which businesses operate, etc. It's also not just due to reintegration of eastern germany. France is experiencing similar problems with a long-runnign weak labor market as well with an unemployment rate approaching 10%. The two largest EU economies have not been doing well for quite a while.
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| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
Since the government is the one hypothetically paying the unemployment benefits, shouldn't it be their criteria that is used to determine who qualifies? |
I'm not arguing whether a country can determine who is elligible for benefits, I'm saying that unemployment rate shouldn't based on whether your elligible for benefits.
As far as the criteria being the same for the US and Germany, I'll have to take occ word because I don't feel like examining it.
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Huh, blame reintergration of East Germany eh? I coulda sworn that almost happened 20 years ago... Wonder why it was never a big issue on unemployment until now (record low since post 1930s)...
I'm not saying its socialism par say, but it is defintely the fault of German politics and the German "system". |
Not only the integration of East Germany but there is a flood of immigration from former eastern block satellites. I would agree with occ the unemployment rate is the result of multiple factors. I'm not in a position to list and weight each, but I can say without hesitation that its not socialism. One also must consider the migration of manufacturing jobs to China. Some countries are positioned better than others to make a transition. I would think Germany economy is more dependent on manufacturing than the US but here again that just an educated guess. |
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| Subey |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
Re: Gotta love socialism. German Jobless rate hits new record (12.6%) |
I'm naive. That should be Naiive since in this situation I believe the a and i are in a dieretic relationship. Regardless...
I can't imagine why a nation that is 50% former Eastern Block might have employment challenges... imagine that totally obvious fact playing a role?
Hmm, let's scratch the surface. Highest umemployment in Germany is in the city of Halle at 21%, it's in the Eastern part of the county... hmmm what about Dresden coming in at 19% oh wait for it... Eastern Germany.
Stuttgart 4.5%, take a wild off the wall guess which part of Germany it can be found in...
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You are not entitled to an opinion, you are entitled to an informed opinion, so next time you want to make a statement, how about informing yourself just a tiny bit...
[source]http://epp.eurostat.cec.eu.int/cache/ITY_PUBLIC/1-09112004-AP/EN/1-09112004-AP-EN.PDF |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by igottaknow
Not only the integration of East Germany but there is a flood of immigration from former eastern block satellites. I would agree with occ the unemployment rate is the result of multiple factors. I'm not in a position to list and weight each, but I can say without hesitation that its not socialism. One also must consider the migration of manufacturing jobs to China. Some countries are positioned better than others to make a transition. I would think Germany economy is more dependent on manufacturing than the US but here again that just an educated guess. |
i'm not sure if you are trying to place blame aside from Socialism however, Germany depends heavily on exports (mostly tech). competition, amongst fellow EU'ers, the U.S., and Asia. Socialism is a vague excuse, but comparitively, can be validated with thorough explanation of the complexities of EU competition. sorry, not gonna do it. |
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| JM |
interesting...
blame it on the turkish and yugo immigrants. Hot DAMMIT!!!
>JM< |
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| Dupz |
Okay, I think we're getting off the point a little, but neither Socialism, East Germany nor the method of calculation are to blame for Germany's high unemployment rate..
Germany becoming a memeber of the EU is the reason why their unemployment is so high. German wages are the problem. Being amongst the highest in the world they find it hard to compete with the low wage countries of developing Europe, therefore forcing many of Germany's jobs to move offshore *shock* creating unemployment. Germany is merely in a transitional period, and will come out of it stronger than ever.
Dont look to far into people, and start blaming east germans etc.. Pick up any economics textbook and it become all too clear. |
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| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dupz
German wages are the problem. Being amongst the highest in the world they find it hard to compete with the low wage countries of developing Europe, therefore forcing many of Germany's jobs to move offshore *shock* creating unemployment. |
Of course that raises the question is it better to have a higher unemployment rate but the people who are employed are high skilled and paid well? Or would you rather have a lower employment rate courtesy of low skill/low wage service jobs and part-time/no benefits jobs? |
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