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Is it normal that your mix clips when master limiter is off or do I mix wrong way?!
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| Dance123 |
Hi,
I have an essential question about mixing: when you're setting the levels to create your mix, is it a rule that you should be able to mix without having clipping in the master channel when you turn your master limiter off or is it normal that a mix clips then? What are the rules in mixing when setting levels etc..? Should you be able to mix without a master limiter or is that just not possible in practice?!
The problem is that from the moment I have a couple of sounds in a mix without using a limiter it always starts to clip in the master channel (I use Cubase SX by the way). Is this normal or am I doing something wrong, it's not like I am really pushing it, it's just when you add more sounds then the clipping starts if there is no limiter. The problem is I actually don't want the limiter because it alters the sound of your mix too much, it's just that I have to place one in the master channels or otherwise my mix gets out of control with clipping. What should I do?!
Can anybody please teach me how I should mix properly?
Thanks in advance for all good feedback! |
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| RiCo |
| You shouldn't have any clipping, bro. Nothing is supposed to pass 0 dB. Set your inputs less than 0 in your soundcard. Also, in Cubase SX, when the harddisk is recording, it'll show that the signal is clipping but it's not. |
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| thecYrus |
no it shouldn't clip in the master. try to lower all channels, so that you'll get a less loud mix (and no clipping).
and for the channels which have some loud peaks try to get rid of them with a compressor (if it doesn't affect the sound too much) |
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| Dance123 |
Thanks for all the replies! I hope more will follow!
What you all say seems obvious that it shouldn't clip without limiter, however the problem is when I start with a kick (which are all normalized at 0db) and then add something, it doesn't really take much to get the clipping problems started if you know what I mean. Does that mean that you should always turn down the level of a 0db normalized kick?! I really would like to know this!
Second, what's the purpose of a limiter then? Shouldn't you use them while mixing?
What would be interesting is if people would be so kind to post a screenshot here of the mixing window of a song you made and then perhaps post a small mp3 clip or something of that song so I can have a visual idea of how levels should normally be set! Could you please do this! It would really make things much clearer, cause I think I am mixing completely wrong. Thanks! |
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| DJMaytag |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dance123
Thanks for all the replies! I hope more will follow!
What you all say seems obvious that it shouldn't clip without limiter, however the problem is when I start with a kick (which are all normalized at 0db) and then add something, it doesn't really take much to get the clipping problems started if you know what I mean. Does that mean that you should always turn down the level of a 0db normalized kick?! |
I reference everything to the kick, which should peak at 0db on the channel. Adding things to the mix (if balanced properly) will make the master channel strip level (if at 0) go a bit above 0db on the level indicator, which is fine. I usually have most of my tracks peaking at about +3db on the master level readout, which is fine (+6 is too much). Technically 0db isn't exactly the true 0db, which gives you a bit of headroom for post production EQ'ing and mastering/normalizing.
BTW, I wouldn't make it a habit of putting a VST limiter on the master channel. Use compression on the individual channels instead. It makes it alot harder to get things balanced out. Apply a master limiter/compressor after you mix down. |
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| Dance123 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJMaytag
I reference everything to the kick, which should peak at 0db on the channel. Adding things to the mix (if balanced properly) will make the master channel strip level (if at 0) go a bit above 0db on the level indicator, which is fine. I usually have most of my tracks peaking at about +3db on the master level readout, which is fine (+6 is too much). Technically 0db isn't exactly the true 0db, which gives you a bit of headroom for post production EQ'ing and mastering/normalizing. |
Are you sure about this? I know that in the analog domain you can go above 0db a bit, but isn't it so that you should never go above 0db in the digital domain?! Are you talking about 16bit or higher resolution and does this make a difference?!
Is it true that you can mix more above 0db without clipping distortion if you use 24 or 32bit Float in SX, or is this only true when you're recording stuff, so not mixing and that this could still give you clipping problems when you mixdown to a 16bit file?! |
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| Sirocco |
| i agree with dance123, the digital domain doesn't allow any headroom neaturally |
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| DJMaytag |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dance123
Are you sure about this? I know that in the analog domain you can go above 0db a bit, but isn't it so that you should never go above 0db in the digital domain?! Are you talking about 16bit or higher resolution and does this make a difference?!
Is it true that you can mix more above 0db without clipping distortion if you use 24 or 32bit Float in SX, or is this only true when you're recording stuff, so not mixing and that this could still give you clipping problems when you mixdown to a 16bit file?! |
The analog goes from 0db up to however loud you can get, while in the digital domain, 0db is the highest you can get, and everything goes down from there. 16 bit resolution means the dynamic range goes from 0db down to -96db, 24 bit goes from 0db down to -144db. Each bit equals 6db of dynamic range (IIRC).
Just because it says 0db, doesn't mean it's truly 0db. Some DAT decks back in the day were notorious for marking -2db as 0db so you wouldn't go over.
In theory, if you "go over" 0db (which you can't really do), you get distortion, a nasty digital distortion. But if it's really short (10 milliseconds or less) and just barely hitting "over 0db", then it's OK. Overshoot too much for too long and it WILL get nasty.
As far as Cubase goes, +6 is technically 0db. If you have 20 signals peaking at 0db on the channels, the sum of those will add up to a greater signal level at the master channel, which is why you need to watch what the master channel level peaks out at. |
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| Dance123 |
Hi,
Can you go +6 db in Cubase SX without any digital distortion (clipping)? Where did you read that. You could be right cause I remember reading something like that before somewhere, but I can't find the info in the manual or something. Also, I thought this is determined by which bitrate (16, 24, 32bit float) that you use or does that have nothing to do with it. Could you please explain, like could you have your mix all the time to +6 db in SX if you make certain settings, have the right hardware, etc.. |
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| wayfinder |
| I mix at -12 db... you can always turn up the volume later. |
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| DJMaytag |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dance123
Hi,
Can you go +6 db in Cubase SX without any digital distortion (clipping)? Where did you read that. You could be right cause I remember reading something like that before somewhere, but I can't find the info in the manual or something. Also, I thought this is determined by which bitrate (16, 24, 32bit float) that you use or does that have nothing to do with it. Could you please explain, like could you have your mix all the time to +6 db in SX if you make certain settings, have the right hardware, etc.. |
The bitrate is solely about the dynamic range available to you, so that won't affect your level settings (unless you're mixing down to a really low level setting like -30db).
If you're peaking the master channel at +6 when you mix down, if you open up your track in an editor like Soundforge or Cooledit, then your track should be peaking at 0db on the editor's output levels. This is why I target the mix at +3, so I have some room to EQ and/or add some compression.
Hardware doesn't have anything to do with what's going on internally in Cubase when you mix down. The only "setting" are making sure you have the right balances down between all your sounds. |
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| thecYrus |
| well, why should you mix to 0db? it doesn't make any sense if you don't have enough headroom for the mastering and that's where you adjust the volume with limiter and compressors to get the loudest "tune".. |
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