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Religion (pg. 4)
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Hand in hand with evolution?
Good one, Heinz. Please explain how the perverted form of evolution that was derived by madmen like Hitler has ANYTHING in any way to do with the biological form of evolution, i.e. the change in allele frequencies in a population over time.
Yes, this sounds like an atheist, doesn't it?:
Not that I think that his version of Christianity was correct nor very consistent with Jesus' teachings in any way, but he sure did, and he was anything but an atheist:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
Why am I not surprised that you still continue to know jack about evolutionary theory? |
I think the point is that just because someone is religious doesn't mean all their actions are done because of that. Was religion the reason why Hitler invaded Poland? Or was it an imperialist expansionist policy that had nothing to do with religion? The Holocaust is irrelevent to this debate as we are discussing war, and the Holocaust was mutually exclusive from the war because that wasn't the reason the UK and Russia decided to declare war on Germany. If that had have been the reason we would have entered long before.
I think Hitler believed he had the green light, so to speak, from God, but his belief in God did not lead to his decision to invade Poland. This was based on nationalism, not religion. |
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
I think the point is that just because someone is religious doesn't mean all their actions are done because of that. Was religion the reason why Hitler invaded Poland? Or was it an imperialist expansionist policy that had nothing to do with religion? The Holocaust is irrelevent to this debate as we are discussing war, and the Holocaust was mutually exclusive from the war because that wasn't the reason the UK and Russia decided to declare war on Germany. If that had have been the reason we would have entered long before.
I think Hitler believed he had the green light, so to speak, from God, but his belief in God did not lead to his decision to invade Poland. This was based on nationalism, not religion. |
You had me until the last sentence. I don't think we can state conclusively that it was solely base on nationalism, though that's certainly the culprit geopolitically and militarily speaking. But those firm beliefs he had being the right hand of God.
Do I think religion was THE culprit behind WWII? Of course not - that's a very big stretch. Did it play in a role in the madman that created WWII? That's pretty difficult to deny. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| Look, guys, Hitler did believe in evolution, as most sane people do, but this belief was not necessarry to arrive to the concept of a master race. As for his religion, he was somewhat of a pagan/occultist who believed that the germanic/norse people were the uber-race descended from the people of Atlantis. He also did believe in a christian god and Jesus, but he believed that Jesus was just a human and not a real god. His belief was the reason why he sent all those expeditions to Tibet to find the first ancestors of the aryan race because he supposed that they landed on the Himalayas after the great flood that destroyed Atlantis and was written about in the bible. |
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| ::TranceVanDyk:: |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Hand in hand with evolution?
Good one, Heinz. Please explain how the perverted form of evolution that was derived by madmen like Hitler has ANYTHING in any way to do with the biological form of evolution, i.e. the change in allele frequencies in a population over time.
Yes, this sounds like an atheist, doesn't it?:
Not that I think that his version of Christianity was correct nor very consistent with Jesus' teachings in any way, but he sure did, and he was anything but an atheist:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
Why am I not surprised that you still continue to know jack about evolutionary theory? |
in evolution, is murder wrong? is there a right and a wrong in evolution? because evolution just isnt biological. it definatly crosses the line into ethics. why not euthanize all retarded or handicapped people? those weak people are hurting the gene pool. and tell me how this is inconsistant with evolution? i may not know PHD level biology/evolutionary theory, but i certainly know enough to discern the facts for myself, and not just be told what to believe in the public school science class.
tell me how hitlers regime was not atheistic, when they tried just as today, people are trying to take god or any religion that didnt agree with the national socialist party out of all aspects of society. hitler certainly was not a theist. hitler was one of the biggest liars that ever lived. he once said, "How fortunate for leaders that men do not think." and also, "The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one.". if he ever really professed a devotion to a god in general, he certainly was just trying to appease whoever he needed to appease.
looking at the website you gave me, it runs contrary to what hitler's actions were against christianity. why oppress your own religion??
| quote: | Once Hitler had gained power, he began to see Christianity as a threat to the National Socialists' domination of Germany. After 1935 his speeches and writings became more and more virulently anti-Christian; he argued that Christian worship was a sign of weakness, and that it should be replaced by reverence for the nation and the state, and of course for the National Socialist Party. However, he retained his belief in reincarnation, and his conviction that there was some supreme creative force whose will he was enacting.
The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity ... The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.
I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews.
[Quoted from Hitler's "Table Talks" with Bormann,
in "Hitler: A Study in Tyranny" by Allan Bullock.]
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| quote: | | Why am I not surprised that you still continue to know jack about evolutionary theory? |
i know enough to make an arguement against it. will u tell me that china, the former USSR & Soviet bloc, North Korea, etc. are not atheistic governments who base many of their beliefs upon evolution?? many more multitudes of people have died from atheistic doctrine than ever came close to dying because of wars fought over religion.
if youve got counter-arguement to throw back, throw it. no need for the personal insults.
EDIT:: Why would Hitler believe in a religion who's founder was a jew, who's origon was in a jewish nation, who's first followers were all jews. that doesnt make sense. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
You had me until the last sentence. I don't think we can state conclusively that it was solely base on nationalism, though that's certainly the culprit geopolitically and militarily speaking. But those firm beliefs he had being the right hand of God.
Do I think religion was THE culprit behind WWII? Of course not - that's a very big stretch. Did it play in a role in the madman that created WWII? That's pretty difficult to deny. |
Well its quite hard for either of us to argue our case with out asking Hitler himself and if he were still around I can think of a lot better things to do than ask him about religion (pinapples come to mind!) Basically, my problem is that I dont accept that just because someone is religious that all their actions are done because of their beliefs. As for whether Hitler's beliefs caused the madman he became (if madmen can become rulers of countries that is) then I'm still not convinced that was down to his religion. Racism or nationalism can come from anywhere, I see it everyday, but not cos of religion. Hitler was proud of his people and his (adopted) country and what had happened to Germany following WW1 (Treaty of Versailles, depression) wouldn't have gone down too well with someone who had extreme nationalist/racist tendencies whether he was religious or not. But like I said, its all speculation but thats why I am reluctant to blame it on religion to the extent you are implying |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk::
in evolution, is murder wrong? is there a right and a wrong in evolution? because evolution just isnt biological. it definatly crosses the line into ethics. why not euthanize all retarded or handicapped people? those weak people are hurting the gene pool. and tell me how this is inconsistant with evolution? i may not know PHD level biology/evolutionary theory, but i certainly know enough to discern the facts for myself, and not just be told what to believe in the public school science class.
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What??? Are you insane?? How is evolution a NON biological process?? When a mutated gene allows its host organism to become more adaptive to an environemnt that allows the organism to survive over a competitive species, it consults its moral code to retroactively decide whether it should mutate or not??? Evolution doesn't say ANYTHING about morality because MORALITY ISN'T SCIENCE. Do you think a ing hydrogen atom decides it shouldn't bond with another hydrogen atom and an oxygen atom to form a water molecule because it doesn't want to violate the personal privacy of the other atoms??? FFS You don't need a PHD level education, but perhaps you should wait until you get at least a college level education in science ...
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tell me how hitlers regime was not atheistic, when they tried just as today, people are trying to take god or any religion that didnt agree with the national socialist party out of all aspects of society. hitler certainly was not a theist. hitler was one of the biggest liars that ever lived. he once said, "How fortunate for leaders that men do not think." and also, "The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one.". if he ever really professed a devotion to a god in general, he certainly was just trying to appease whoever he needed to appease.
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Nothing indicates that he wasn't a theist at the very least. Quite the contrary the mountain of evidence suggests that he was likely Christian and anti-Catholic (which does not suggest he was anti-Christian).
He evocated his "christian" views long before he became a political figure in mainstream politics. For example, consider this speech before Mein Kampf and in his 20s:
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My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.
Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.
As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice . . .
And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.
When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.""
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http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag...rchristian.html
| quote: |
EDIT:: Why would Hitler believe in a religion who's founder was a jew, who's origon was in a jewish nation, who's first followers were all jews. that doesnt make sense. |
Oh right, because Christianity has NEVER been anti-semetic or held a grudge against judaism :rolleyes:.
http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/..._of_the_jew.htm |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
And people say we have stupid posts only in chillout room...eh, anyway...
| quote: | Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk::
in evolution, is murder wrong? is there a right and a wrong in evolution? because evolution just isnt biological. it definatly crosses the line into ethics. why not euthanize all retarded or handicapped people? those weak people are hurting the gene pool. and tell me how this is inconsistant with evolution? i may not know PHD level biology/evolutionary theory, but i certainly know enough to discern the facts for myself, and not just be told what to believe in the public school science class. |
Oh, gee, is there right and wrong in, oh, I dunno, astronomy? What if an asteroid smashes into the earth and kills all life? Some damn evil asteroid it must be! FFS, any applied science crosses the line into ethics, with chemistry you can make posions, with physics you can make nukes, with biology you can breed viruses, with genetics, oh well, you can make all kinds of good/bad things for the people. And, duh, even if you don't believe in evolution you must realize that genetic traits are hereditary. In other words, retarded people do have a pretty nice chance to have retarded offspring. Ultimately there is the ethical question of what we should do with such people. Personally, I do not think that them breeding would be the wisest of ideas. But on the other hand, for some reason retarded guys don't really have much success with chicks. Wonder why...maybe because evolution causes them to choose the partners who seem to be most fitting to raise the offspring, eh?
| quote: | | tell me how hitlers regime was not atheistic, when they tried just as today, people are trying to take god or any religion that didnt agree with the national socialist party out of all aspects of society. hitler certainly was not a theist. hitler was one of the biggest liars that ever lived. he once said, "How fortunate for leaders that men do not think." and also, "The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one.". if he ever really professed a devotion to a god in general, he certainly was just trying to appease whoever he needed to appease. |
Are you retarded or something? He was not a catholic, yes, because his beliefs did wander away from the mainstream catholic/christian doctrine, but not only was he a theist, he was also a christian because he believed in Jesus Christ. Why else would he dedicate all that energy to go after all those sacred christian relics like the Spear of Longinus and store them in his vaults to help him bring victory? Not only that, he was also pretty fanatical with occult and pagan beliefs, and he regularly consulted his horoscope to help him decide the course of actions he should take in the war. Really something that atheists would do...
| quote: | | looking at the website you gave me, it runs contrary to what hitler's actions were against christianity. why oppress your own religion?? |
Look, you only see christianity as provided by the doctrine of the catholic, protestant, and ortodox church. There have been numerous different sects of christianity in the past that differed very much from those doctrines, but they have died out or were declared as heresy and had their followers killed by the catholics (hmm, Cathars anyone?). Hitler himself believed in the Arian sect of christianity (as did some germanic tribes during the time of Rome) which was later extinguished by, oh gee, lemme see, catholics?
| quote: | | i know enough to make an arguement against it. will u tell me that china, the former USSR & Soviet bloc, North Korea, etc. are not atheistic governments who base many of their beliefs upon evolution?? many more multitudes of people have died from atheistic doctrine than ever came close to dying because of wars fought over religion. |
Yes, they were officially atheistic governments, but they based their views upon evolution as much as they based them upon mechanical engeneering. And read up on how many people were killed by the Inquisition. Just in the witch trials they killed 40000-60000 women.
| quote: | | if youve got counter-arguement to throw back, throw it. no need for the personal insults. |
Honestly, your arguments are so whack that it's really hard to seriously rebutt them.
| quote: | | EDIT:: Why would Hitler believe in a religion who's founder was a jew, who's origon was in a jewish nation, who's first followers were all jews. that doesnt make sense. |
Well, obviously you're not really aware of the fact that anti-semitism has been very popular in the christian world ever since the Roman Empire. Check out a bit on what happened to the jews in the mideval Spain. Do you think Hitler came to power alone with no popular support? Do you think that strong antisemitic nazi parties in England and France didn't exist in the 1930's? I'll give you a hint, it has something to do with the fact that jewish people had killed Jesus and kept denying him as a savior.
Oh, and why would fanatical muslims delight in killing people who believed in all of their greatest prophets except for the last one? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
What??? Are you insane?? How is evolution a NON biological process?? When a mutated gene allows its host organism to become more adaptive to an environemnt that allows the organism to survive over a competitive species, it consults its moral code to retroactively decide whether it should mutate or not??? Evolution doesn't say ANYTHING about morality because MORALITY ISN'T SCIENCE. Do you think a ing hydrogen atom decides it shouldn't bond with another hydrogen atom and an oxygen atom to form a water molecule because it doesn't want to violate the personal privacy of the other atoms??? |
:haha: Holy crap! That's the funniest thing I've read all day! :stongue: |
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| ::TranceVanDyk:: |
| quote: | Originally posted by JOEBIALEK
Perhaps if humanity could somehow integrate all these religious belief systems toward the goal of one spirituality with God, we could finally begin to see the emergence of world peace. |
That will never happen. There may be similarities, but the differences and contradictions prevent a unification of world religions. Christianity believes jesus is the son of god, making him equal with god, while muslims believe he was just a good teacher. That seemingly small disagreement is actually an irreconcilable difference between just two of the world's largest religions. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk::
That will never happen. There may be similarities, but the differences and contradictions prevent a unification of world religions. Christianity believes jesus is the son of god, making him equal with god, while muslims believe he was just a good teacher. That seemingly small disagreement is actually an irreconcilable difference between just two of the world's largest religions. |
the whole reason this will never happen is you cannot reconcile belief in the same way you can rationality.
we've missed you TVD!! ;) |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk::
That will never happen. There may be similarities, but the differences and contradictions prevent a unification of world religions. Christianity believes jesus is the son of god, making him equal with god |
Actually that's just what the Catholic Church taught, they killed all the other Christians that didn't believe that!! (The Catholic Church at it's inception only represented a very small section of the dozens of Christian denominations prevailant at the time)
But I guess that's just me being pedantic... |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk::
That will never happen. There may be similarities, but the differences and contradictions prevent a unification of world religions. Christianity believes jesus is the son of god, making him equal with god, while muslims believe he was just a good teacher. That seemingly small disagreement is actually an irreconcilable difference between just two of the world's largest religions. |
Well, the intergration of beliefs has already occured. Baha'ism is a faith born of the Islamic tradition that believes all (well most) of the world's religions are valid, true, and born of the same god. To followers of Baha'ism the differences between the religions are due to god tailoring his revealations to the culture to which he was revealing himself to... each religion is reflective of the historical context in which god revealed himself but all essentially have the same overall theames and message. There are about 7.5 million Baha'ists presently.
BTW, Jesus is more then simply a good teacher to Muslims. He is the second highest prophet and will return to life to lead the faithful in the final battle between good and evil, when the war is ended he will finally die and be intombed beside Muhammed. |
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