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Man and God (pg. 9)
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| Max Q |
| quote: | Originally posted by TrickDaddE
he sewed his eyes shut because he is afraid to see
he tries to tell me what i put inside of me
he's got the answers to ease my curiosity
he dreamed a god up and called it christianity
NIN |
"your god is dead, and no one cares. If there is a hell, I'll see you there..."
I was a huge NIN fan (still love the music) -- but I feel for Trent who wrote these lyrics. He was in a very dark place and obviously had/has strong feelings against Christianity. Which is probably why I cannot listen to NIN anymore. (That and the fact that I don't like the new music anyhow -- gimme the old ;) )
Bottom line for me is -- well, if there is an eternal afterlife, I want to be on the winning side which happens to be Good ;) |
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| Max Q |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
Well i think the flaw with that argument is that it indeed would be a very small probability for the universe to be created like it is right now. However, if it wouldnt have been created like it is now, then it would have been created in some other way, which also would have created life, just not in the exact same way as we have it now. I have read that the probability for creating life out of randomness, is really quite big (bigger chance of happening than not happening i think?), and not the 8*10^99 or whatever creationists usually say.
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Hehe. Funny you say that. I was just thinking about that before I read your post. And yeah.. if the universe is infinitely huge, then it would make logical sense that everything happened to us by chance BECAUSE of the fact that the probability is less than infinite.
... but there's always something drawing me to the whole moral question. I mean, why would we even have philosophy/theological/moral discussions anyway as a race? Why are there some fundamentally WRONG things like murder/rape/molestation -- i'm sorry but even in cultures where things like these might seem like they're accepted (i don't know of any offhand, but i'm sure some might bring up Mayan human sacrifices, or the such) I think there's a general consensus and feel that there exists such thing as 'evil' in this world.
See, nullifying God/Satan would mean to negate the notion of Good vs. Evil. If there is no such thing as good or evil (if it's all just 'perception' let's say), then heck, let's all just do whatever we feel like.
"I don't like you. I'm going to kick you in the face and then curb stomp your head" -- Hey, I'm not doing anything wrong -- I'm just doing what I wanted to at that time.
(yes, that was a BIG leap and this example may seem far fetched, i know. But I think it's still valid and I hope my point is well taken) |
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| DJ_Bananie |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Please to note, the hebrew word for murder was mistranslated to kill by the Greeks.... the Romans copied the Greeks and therefore this commandment is incorrect. The commandment is thou shalt not murder. Thinking God commanded the Hebrews not to kill is moronic considering the amount of killing he also commanded the Jews to do. |
isn't killing and murdering the same thing?
like... both mean taking another persons life, so how does that change the commandment? |
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| DJ_Elyot |
| quote: | Originally posted by Max Q
Hehe. Funny you say that. I was just thinking about that before I read your post. And yeah.. if the universe is infinitely huge, then it would make logical sense that everything happened to us by chance BECAUSE of the fact that the probability is less than infinite.
... but there's always something drawing me to the whole moral question. I mean, why would we even have philosophy/theological/moral discussions anyway as a race? Why are there some fundamentally WRONG things like murder/rape/molestation -- i'm sorry but even in cultures where things like these might seem like they're accepted (i don't know of any offhand, but i'm sure some might bring up Mayan human sacrifices, or the such) I think there's a general consensus and feel that there exists such thing as 'evil' in this world.
See, nullifying God/Satan would mean to negate the notion of Good vs. Evil. If there is no such thing as good or evil (if it's all just 'perception' let's say), then heck, let's all just do whatever we feel like.
"I don't like you. I'm going to kick you in the face and then curb stomp your head" -- Hey, I'm not doing anything wrong -- I'm just doing what I wanted to at that time.
(yes, that was a BIG leap and this example may seem far fetched, i know. But I think it's still valid and I hope my point is well taken) |
Well I'm speaking from the point of view of a moral relativist (an idead which most Christians can't stand, because most people can't apply it properly without being idiots). Molestation was a beautiful, classy thing for the ancient romans. There are many species that only procreate through "rape", where one sex has no desire to mate.
It has been proven that there are no biological functions which tell us what is right and what is wrong, other than the basic physical and emotional feedback system (which states "do what feels good, avoid pain"). When humans grow up, they get used to the practices that take place in life around them. They explains phemomena such as desensitization, which is really just a natural human adaptation to the conditions existing within our environment.
There is definitely NOT a general consensus that evil exists within this world. Ask a determinist and they'll tell you that good and evil are just made up words to describe outcomes of the chemical reactions in our brains. Good and evil can only exist if you believe in free will, which is NOT universally agreed upon. I personally do not believe in free will at all, and I hold the opinion that humans are victims of the outcomes of decisions made by chemicals in their brains. Sure, we observe things and react to them. But that's all.
People are a bit afraid of relativism and determinism because accepting those premises essentially means accepting that human beings are powerless and reduced to the level of animals. Many people like to believe that humanity is "special" in some sort of way, but IMO that's just our own arrogance. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ_Elyot
Well I'm speaking from the point of view of a moral relativist (an idead which most Christians can't stand, because most people can't apply it properly without being idiots). Molestation was a beautiful, classy thing for the ancient romans. There are many species that only procreate through "rape", where one sex has no desire to mate.
It has been proven that there are no biological functions which tell us what is right and what is wrong, other than the basic physical and emotional feedback system (which states "do what feels good, avoid pain"). When humans grow up, they get used to the practices that take place in life around them. They explains phemomena such as desensitization, which is really just a natural human adaptation to the conditions existing within our environment.
There is definitely NOT a general consensus that evil exists within this world. Ask a determinist and they'll tell you that good and evil are just made up words to describe outcomes of the chemical reactions in our brains. Good and evil can only exist if you believe in free will, which is NOT universally agreed upon. I personally do not believe in free will at all, and I hold the opinion that humans are victims of the outcomes of decisions made by chemicals in their brains. Sure, we observe things and react to them. But that's all.
People are a bit afraid of relativism and determinism because accepting those premises essentially means accepting that human beings are powerless and reduced to the level of animals. Many people like to believe that humanity is "special" in some sort of way, but IMO that's just our own arrogance. |
amen to all that :) |
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| Max Q |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ_Elyot
Well I'm speaking from ... <shortened quote> ... Many people like to believe that humanity is "special" in some sort of way, but IMO that's just our own arrogance. |
I see. I'm taking it that since you are speaking from a moral relativist's point of view that you are in fact one yourself (and not just playing devil's advocate so to speak). If you are then I'd just like to throw a 'what if' type question at ya. If there's a man who was accused of molesting a child (and this child did not ever want to ever be molested, and so the man was infringing on the child's rights and freedom), and this man was found guilty, imprisoned and/or sentenced to death in our society, would you say that he was wrong only because our society deemed it wrong? Or would you say that he did what he naturally felt compelled to do and that you cannot judge him for wrongdoing, therefore he shouldn't be punished?
I guess what it boils down to it seems is that the majority does in fact rule (and govern) what is right and wrong...
... i personally struggle to see the truth in all of this. Maybe human perception of what right and wrong can be interpreted by different cultures differently, but I believe that there is an objective truth to right and wrong (Yeah I know, try to prove it, Max :p) I just think that if morality doesn't mean anything, then what we do and who we are don't mean anything. If we don't mean anything, then why bother being? Sad existence, if I say so myself. |
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| Dj Smitty20 |
| quote: | Originally posted by TheVrk
Key word: SEEMS
And you base your entire argument on what seems to be.... |
ok Bible Boy!! Use your book, the Bible (a 1st Century Lord of the Rings if anything) to explain these things. If there is a God, who created him or her or it? And who created that and WHY? Yes...why is the important question. Why is there anything?
Why were there dinosaurs living here millions of years before us? Why is there so much evidence (that goes beyond proving the point) which shows how apes clearly evolved into man over a few million years? Why, millions of years ago, was Mars a habitable planet likely thriving with life? How do you explain chimpanzees having nearly 99% the same genetic code as humans? How do you explain why chimps, monkies, apes, etc have the same habits as humans, namely masturbation, sex for enjoyment, using weapons to kill, and on and on?
Ohh...because it's all about FAITH! Yes of course! Believe in this book that was written two thousand years ago by people who, by our standards, were primitive and archaic with little to no knowledge of the natural processes of this world. Having faith is always the answer, even though it can't be proven! You know why so many people claim to believe in God? THey're afraid to die, and the Bible(s) offer a nice, comfortable answer as to what happens after death.
I feel sorry for people who have been brainwashed since their youth and now have blinders in front of their eyes so big that they can't see anything else around them. |
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| Dj Smitty20 |
By the way, it is not the existence of "God" that I debate. Obviously, there is something out there that's behind all of this. If you want to call that "God", suit yourself. What I vehemently reject is the various religious interpretations of the creator(s).
Whatever is going on out there is vastly beyond our comprehension. It is an issue that both religion and science have so far failed to clearly answer. |
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| Jem_hadar |
| quote: | Originally posted by Max Q
I just think that if morality doesn't mean anything, then what we do and who we are don't mean anything. If we don't mean anything, then why bother being? Sad existence, if I say so myself. |
See, thats whut i just dont get.
why does Life need to have a greater meaning to make it worth doing anything???? :conf:!!!
you say "if we don't mean anything, then why bother being"??? WHy bother being? simply because we exist, we should wanna keep on existing. thats the reson. u just happen to exist and be here, and u can do stuff since u exist, so u should do stuff... its just like that.
i dont see whuts sad about existing w/o a higher purpose. learn to make urself happy w/ urself, for just being as u are... for just accepting that all this u see just happens to exist (and for no real higher purpose or greater meaning, it just does). i dont know why ppl need a "higher power" to define themselves and be content w/ meaning in their life. :(
-jem- |
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| Dj Smitty20 |
| I notice nobody will answer my challenges. I've often encountered this though....any time you pose a set of tough questions, religious people turn a blind eye and a deaf ear. If you press them enough, they'll come back with the same old yim yam about having faith. |
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| muzzybear |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
ok Bible Boy!! Use your book, the Bible (a 1st Century Lord of the Rings if anything) to explain these things. If there is a God, who created him or her or it? And who created that and WHY? Yes...why is the important question. Why is there anything?
Why were there dinosaurs living here millions of years before us? Why is there so much evidence (that goes beyond proving the point) which shows how apes clearly evolved into man over a few million years? Why, millions of years ago, was Mars a habitable planet likely thriving with life? How do you explain chimpanzees having nearly 99% the same genetic code as humans? How do you explain why chimps, monkies, apes, etc have the same habits as humans, namely masturbation, sex for enjoyment, using weapons to kill, and on and on?
Ohh...because it's all about FAITH! Yes of course! Believe in this book that was written two thousand years ago by people who, by our standards, were primitive and archaic with little to no knowledge of the natural processes of this world. Having faith is always the answer, even though it can't be proven! You know why so many people claim to believe in God? THey're afraid to die, and the Bible(s) offer a nice, comfortable answer as to what happens after death.
I feel sorry for people who have been brainwashed since their youth and now have blinders in front of their eyes so big that they can't see anything else around them. |
We can't possibly wrap our heads around "eternity" because we as humans have a beginning and end. The fact that God has always existed is something we can't understand fully. The idea of an "afterlife" was created by Satan in Genesis to make God appear to be a liar (even Jesus was in "hades" or hell "sheol" for 3 nights, so how could we as imperfect humans expect to not go to hell? Gehenna was the term for "everlasting destruction" and was the fire pit outside of Jerusalem where garbage was destroyed, hence the "christian" teaching of hellfire and eternal damnation). God's purpose to have the earth filled by righteous humans has not changed, but his "plan" did (to send a saviour in "ransom" - an equal loss for and equal loss - Jesus would give his perfect human life for the perfect human life that Adam lost for us - "I will send a seed (Jesus) and he will bruise you (Satan) in the head... you will bruise him (Jesus) in the heel"). God couldn't just destroy Adam and Eve and begin again, as he had to think about his heavenly organization watching him, and his rightesous leadership had been questioned. God is allowing a period of time for humans to realize that we can't live without him (do governments really solve the problems we have today?). Those who die can look forward to a resurrection to life (or to judgement).
He will step in shortly (the time of the end is earmarked in Matthew/Timothy and is a fingerprint of our time) to cleanse the earth of unrightousness. It's up to us to decide who's side we're on. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ_Bananie
isn't killing and murdering the same thing?
like... both mean taking another persons life, so how does that change the commandment? |
Murder is the intentional killing of another person for personal reasons.... ie. anger, jellousy, profit, etc.
Killing means the taking of a life.
By using the word kill in the commandment we have interpreted the commandment to mean "thou shalt not (end life)." This means that killing someone in self defence is a sin, capital punishment is a sin, war is a sin, slaughtering animals is a sin, stepping on an ant is a sin, euthenasia is a sin, etc. This is clearly not God's intent (assuming there is a god and he gave the commandments to Moses) as the old testiment is rife with stories of God killing for punishment, leading the Isrealites in war, God commanding capital punishment, ritualistic sacrafice, instructions on how to properly slaughter animals, etc. |
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