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United States in Iraq Poll: Leave or stay (pg. 6)
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| occrider |
Whoops sorry I missed your reply.
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
Wars aren't free.
You're the financial guru figure this out:
Can a war be fought for free?
If Conress and Co. said "Hey we need to pay for this war so pay more taxes" don't come crying "Why should we?".
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Of course they can’t be fought for free. And I would very much like to see a tax hike to pay for it. At the very least it would be mud in the eye of Republicans. Realistically, however, it will probably be funded by reduced discretionary spending and more deficit spending. The financial markets are still showing resilient demand for T-bills and yields are still low so it’s sustainable in the short term … fortunately and unfortunately.
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Do you know how the Iraqis feel? Have you talked to any one of them personally? So how would you assume that they want us to stay and install a government. Who's telling you to stay? Who are you trusting to stay?
The media? The administration? You trust those same people that lied to you. You trust those people that say 58% say yes?
Those same people that say you should stay are the only, I repeat, only people that benefit from the souls of men and women that die on both sides.
I only thing I benefit from leaving is the amount of lives saved from the egress. To say that there would be continued or a renewed terrorism is believing the same people that told you there were WMD's when there are none. |
Well aren’t we jumping the gun? The latest poll I can find, conducted by CNN/Gallup/USA Today actually show that 57% of Iraqis want US troops to leave immediately.
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/m...4/28/iraq.poll/
However to say that there won’t be continued terrorism once US troops leave is rather naïve. That’s along the lines of saying that if the US abandoned all foreign policy and became isolationist, that Bin Laden would happily cease all activities. It won’t happen because both groups do not have singular goals solely focused on the US. The rhetoric against the US and the west are a means to an end. Namely a transfer of power in the middle east to fundamentalism. However, I would happily desire a US withdrawal once Iraqis are sufficiently trained to maintain some semblance of order in Iraq. Because I can guarantee you that the terrorism isn’t going to stop when the US leaves. But, I guess we’ll find out one way or another:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5072700431.html |
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| ogvh5150 |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Of course they can’t be fought for free. And I would very much like to see a tax hike to pay for it. At the very least it would be mud in the eye of Republicans. Realistically, however, it will probably be funded by reduced discretionary spending and more deficit spending. The financial markets are still showing resilient demand for T-bills and yields are still low so it’s sustainable in the short term … fortunately and unfortunately. |
Financial markets don't pay for wars, the people do. The financials only help companies that invest in the war machine. Like Dick and Halliburton. Condi and Chevron. W and Carlyle.
The 58% say stay was some poll about whether americans polled say we should stay in Iraq. I wasn't implying what the Iraqis wanted, but I see it is a polar opposite.
Isolationism is a concept that world leaders will never ever practice. That's like asking someone to not breathe. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
Financial markets don't pay for wars, the people do. The financials only help companies that invest in the war machine. Like Dick and Halliburton. Condi and Chevron. W and Carlyle.
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If the cost is borne out of taxation sure. However, with respect to deficit spending (excluding interest on the debt), financial markets are the mechanism that determine how much deficit spending the state can employ. In this case, financial markets still regard the dollar and treasury bills as the "flight to quality" commodities despite the deficit spending so far. |
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| ogvh5150 |
OK so dumb it down for me a bit:
Deficit spending sounds like something that we as a nation should not be doing. Are we spending someone elses' money? (i.e. american public) Why not use some kind of positive indicator or instrument (humor me sensei) to finance a war machine?
After all we are talking about a fiat system anyways. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
OK so dumb it down for me a bit:
Deficit spending sounds like something that we as a nation should not be doing. Are we spending someone elses' money? (i.e. american public) Why not use some kind of positive indicator or instrument (humor me sensei) to finance a war machine?
After all we are talking about a fiat system anyways. |
Basically, the way government finances deficit spending is that it issues securities such as treasury bonds. Now the primary reason why people buy these securities is because the risk of the government not obligating its debt is so ridiculously low that it’s almost a sure thing. That’s why the interest you receive on treasury bills are so low, it’s far less risky than investing in say the stock market or a mutual fund. Of course, the government MUST pay the interest on its securities. If it missed payment it would lead to a catastrophic collapse of the bond market. So in a sense the American public does pay for this interest in taxes (and I believe the biggest holder of government bonds is the social security trust fund). However, the government could always issue more debt to pay the interest or finance whatever deficits they want so long as there is demand for this debt. And that’s just what we’re seeing, given the global economic conditions, and the state of the US economy, there is still a lot of demand for US securities. So buyers are unconcerned with our current level of deficit spending and the US’s ability to pay its debt obligations. If they were concerned you would see less demand for securities, and more demand for money. What results is that the market demands higher yields on bonds since money is in demand and government securities have become less risk adverse. Thus the interest you would pay on these securities would be more and more. It’s like when you apply for a loan. If you have bad credit, you’ll end up with a higher interest rate since the bank is taking more risks to lend you money than they would with someone with great credit. So can a nation engage in deficit spending? Absolutely. Should a nation engage in deficit spending? Yes but only to smooth out economic cycles, reckless deficit spending can have undesirable consequences. This was a simple summary and I left out a bunch of intermediary economic effects so don’t quote me on this. |
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| Nayil |
| wow ....the more US stays the more oil hmmm... |
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| MansourLebnani |
Tell me where everyone gets their numbers on innocent civilians killed in Iraq by U.S. Forces. The only innocent civilians that are killed are killed usually by Sunni Terrorists attempting to incite civil war in the Sunni Triangle. I am in continuous contact with the enemy (Syrian, Anti-Coalition Insurgents)here in Al Anbar Province and the Collateral damage is unbelievably low for any style of war. I'd venture to say, in our area of operations, that more people have been killed by stray gunfire in Los Angeles than here in the Hit, Hadithah corridor. And on the war, members of congress from both sides (including Mr. Kerry), voted for the war. The decision to stay is a no-brainer. We are making progress and we (3rd Battalion 25th Marines) have just recently captured the city of Hit from the insurgents and have implanted a mostly Sunni Iraqi Army Unit to continue our joint patrols and locate, close with and destroy enemy insurgents. My opinion (and the only opinion that can truly be put in context is from the people who live this war) is that the key is to continue to infiltrate all enemy cities and implant trained Iraqi Army Units to patrol the cities after we leave. These Iraqis we work with are simply amazing. All the reports you guys get on their lack of training and discipline back home from the media are ridiculous. These guys were killing insurgents in Fallujah and Mosul and various other places before they even got to us. You have bad apples in any unit, and that goes for the Marine Corps and Army also. Some will not be up to standard. Anyway, the painstaking lengths I go to to protect the innocent here in Hit and in Hadithah from intimidation and getting in between firefights is tremendous. My platoon is as dedicated to the people and esecially the Iraqi Army and Government as ever. For a platoon numbering 18 men who have had 4 Killed in Action and 8 wounded and sent home, all we can say is...FIGHT THROUGH THE FLUFF AND BULL. Don't let anyone tell you the war is going exactly as was planned and humvees are now armored and impenetrable and your young men are safe. They are not. People are smarter than that. But 100 times more disconcerting to us are liberals who want to do anything to trash what we have done here. They truly do feed on our misfortune and even go as far as interviewing disgruntled (bags-as they are referred to in the Armed Forces)soldiers and call them the 21st Century Soldier. I think it was Rolling Stone or GQ. Frankly, you don't see that in the Marine Corps. And as much as people want to think we are brainwashed by Bush and Military doctrine, I've been doing this for 4 years, I'm of Lebanese descent(mom's side), some of my friends are Trance loving Iranian Muslims, we've stepped on the brains of dead insurgents, and we've seen the brains of my best friend after a suicide bomb ripped through our platoon in Hadithah and ripped his face open and gutted 3 others. I still believe in what we are doing and after everything we've been through here with 3rd Battalion 25th Marines, for being the unit, active or reserve, with the most casualties of any unit that has been in Iraq (and the 3rd most combat tested unit since Vietnam) w have every right to throw in the towel. But that is what liberals are hoping for!!!
WEAPONS COMPANY 3/25
CPL "Mansour" |
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| ogvh5150 |
Welcome to the forum.
Other related polls:
Can the United States establish a stable, democratic government in Iraq?
Did the Bush administration deliberately mislead the public of Saddams WMD'S?
Can the United States win the war in Iraq?
United States in Iraq Poll: Leave or stay
Be a US Veteran and be ignored
WASHINGTON - A survey of troops returning from the Iraq war found 30 percent had developed mental health problems three to four months after coming home, the Army's surgeon general said Thursday.
The problems include anxiety, depression, nightmares, anger and an inability to concentrate, according to Lt. Gen. Kevin Kiley and other military medical officials. A smaller group, usually with more severe cases of these symptoms, is diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD.
The 30 percent figure is in contrast to the 3 percent to 5 percent diagnosed with a significant mental health issue immediately after they leave the theater, according to Col. Elspeth Ritchie, a military psychiatrist on Kiley's staff. A study of troops who were still in the combat zone in 2004 found 13 percent experienced significant mental health problems.
Iraq Affecting Mental Health of Troops
Two years into the occupation of Iraq the menace of drug abuse appears to be afflicting American troops.
Aware of the debilitating effect drugs had on the morale and effectiveness of GIs in the Vietnam War, the authorities are attempting to stifle a repeat in Iraq.
Aside from random urine tests and barrack room searches, commanders have asked their troops to inform on colleagues.
In the past month a soldier has been arrested for selling cocaine and two per cent of the troops from one brigade have been charged with drug and alcohol abuse.
According to US army figures, out of the 4,000 men of the 256th Brigade Combat Team, 53 faced alcohol-related charges and 48 were charged with drug offences.
Stressed US troops in Iraq 'turning to drugs'
Originally posted by ogvh5150
Israeli Intel given to US:
| quote: | | In fact, according to Brom, these sources were utterly compromised by Israeli intelligence, which made the case for starting the war and kept it going as long as necessary. The retired general described Israel as a “full partner” in U.S. and British intelligence failures that exaggerated Iraqi President Saddam Hussain’s nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs in the lead up to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. |
Rebels: Top Iraq Terrorist Dead.....
| quote: | | The Post reports that the CIA now has four times as many spies in Iraq as it planned — 300 — making it the largest CIA station in the world, and the largest foreign station since the Saigon office during the Vietnam war...... |
Iraq May Be Prime Place for Training of Militants, C.I.A. Report Concludes
| quote: | | A new classified assessment by the Central Intelligence Agency says Iraq may prove to be an even more effective training ground for Islamic extremists than Afghanistan was in Al Qaeda's early days, because it is serving as a real-world laboratory for urban combat. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| Can you give us any insight of the prison abuses MansourLebnani? Were you involved in them? Did you have fun violating human rights, torturing civilians and sexualy abusing them? Or are you having fun using uranium bullets that are causing thousands of Iraqi kids to be born with henious birth defects? Are you still blowing up the infrastructure there, you know, like the water and energy supplies? Do you like biological warfare? Do you like invading and brutalizing nations? |
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| metalgearsolid |
I will make this short and not like any of you will care and nor will I.
We don't belong in Iraq in the first place leaving now would be a big mistake. We are going to have to finish what we began and help give Iraqis jobs and a safe environment to grow in. If we don't we failed. |
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| ogvh5150 |
| With 2000 dead GI's I bump this. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: |
Cheney warns of 'decades of war'
By Jonathan Beale
BBC News, Washington
US Vice-President Dick Cheney has said that the US must be prepared to fight the war on terror for decades.
Addressing US military personnel, he said that the only way terrorists would win was if the US lost its nerve and abandoned Iraq and the Middle East.
Mr Cheney is the latest senior member of the US administration trying to bolster support for the war in Iraq.
On Thursday, President George W Bush will once again address the issue in a major speech in Washington.
The situation in Iraq remains the Bush administration's biggest challenge and all its senior figures have been brought out to defend the policy as public support for the war continues to slide.
Mr Cheney said that the threat of terrorism would be removed as people in Iraq and the wider Middle East took control of their own lives.
But he added, in a direct appeal to the American people, that like other great duties in history, it would require decades of patient effort.
'Civil war'
The vice president insisted that progress was being made in training up Iraq's own security forces, though he did not indicate how long US forces would remain.
President Bush has promised that America will stay on the offensive to prevent insurgents from disrupting next week's referendum on Iraq's new constitution.
But as the number of US military personnel killed rises towards 2,000, the grumblings are getting louder.
In a letter to President Bush, Democrat senators have warned that continuing on the same path in Iraq could lead to a full-blown civil war.
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Source: BBC |
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