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Do you want to do something about the homeless people you see? (pg. 3)
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Floorwhore
I think it does help. It helps them from not completely losing their minds, and makes them feel like a human being, and not a disease infested street pigeon that s on windshields!! |
I don't mean to be personal here, however, your flawed thinking is indicitive of how most people think and is exactly what allows this horrible situation to continue. If no one felt pity for these people then they would be forced to either a) find a way to improve their situation, or b) die. Either is preferable to a life of mysery.
Your little bit of charity doesn't help them it helps you... you don't feel bad about yourself because you "helped" someone else. You haven't helped them feel human, you've allowed them to continue their life as a "disease infested street pigeon" as you so elequently described them. |
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| Tranceplanted |
Couldn't we just make it illegal for people to be homeless?
Now just follow me with that thought a little further.....
Jails may be overcrowded, but who says these types need to be housed with the rest of "real" criminals?
Basically I look at it this way, make it illegal to be homeless, then give them a place to stay, some structure, but also put them to work, since you now have a cheap and "willing" workforce at your disposal. Perhaps doing some of the jobs that no one else wants to do for a while might give them some motivation, otherwise at least they're doing a service for society instead of being a charity case. Money from the contracts the jails get could be used to partly fund the programs, and although getting paid below minimum, they gain working experience, have housing, meals, access to learning and education, etc. I'd rather have my money paying for something like that rather than seeing ppl give a few bucks here and there to individuals, because that really doesn't help anyone.
At the least, this may deter some of those homeless who choose to pandhandle to make money because it's easier than actually getting a job. Consider how much take home pay is for a minimum wager and you'll figure a panhandler could prolly easy make that as well, and thus choose to do that, which I think is bs since it really does make it even harder to help those that really need it. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Tranceplanted
Basically I look at it this way, make it illegal to be homeless, then give them a place to stay, some structure, but also put them to work, since you now have a cheap and "willing" workforce at your disposal. Perhaps doing some of the jobs that no one else wants to do for a while might give them some motivation, otherwise at least they're doing a service for society instead of being a charity case. Money from the contracts the jails get could be used to partly fund the programs, and although getting paid below minimum, they gain working experience, have housing, meals, access to learning and education, etc. I'd rather have my money paying for something like that rather than seeing ppl give a few bucks here and there to individuals, because that really doesn't help anyone.
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This has been looked at in the past. It's not contitutional. First, making living without a residence illegal would be a violation of our freedom of mobility. Moreover, if the government mandates something that has a cost associated with it they must also provide for that cost to be covered by those that cannot pay it themselves.... in this case, the government would have to supply housing to all who could not afford it otherwise the law would be unenforcable. Finally, it is unconstitutional to force inmates to work in this country.... I cannot recall the citation but this was a recent (last 5 years or so) Supreme Court decision.
BTW, I like the idea... too bad the C of R and F doesn't allow for it. |
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| ChemEnhanced |
| quote: | Originally posted by Floorwhore
I think it does help. It helps them from not completely losing their minds, and makes them feel like a human being, and not a disease infested street pigeon that s on windshields!! |
If you really want to help then bring him into your house and take care of him like any pet.
I agree with Moral here. All we are doing when we throw them some change is keep sustaining their lives and allowing them to continue on day to day. This is not solving the problem. We either have to take drastic measures and force them into housing and work or get rid of the problem by cutting them off completely. |
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| zokissima |
Personally, I pay tax for hospitals, for police, for all sorts of social services, including shelters, money sent abroad, and still get people around every corner begging for money. I don't mind helping out a misfortuned once in a while, but GO OUT AND GET A JOB. I'm sorry, but a lot of these people do not seem to TRULY desire those things you and I "take for granted" (I say that in quotes, cuz it's only those born here into the middle class that have known nothing less, and take it for granted). This country has enough institutions and programmes and plans to help out anyone who is needy, and WHO IS WILLING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!
Go to a shelter, clean yourself up, they'll help you. Go to a church, get some clothes, go to social asistance, get a resume, work at McDonalds, do what you need to.
I work, every day, and every day half of what I make is taken to pay for criminals to live comfortably, for social institutions to "help the needy" and for any other number of social parasites that all seem to believe that I somehow owe it, through my moral and ethical beliefs, more money.
f*** that.
My parents came here with not a single penny to their name, and just the clothes on our backs, just as many, many, many other families and individuals that call Toronto, and the rest of Canada, their home. If so many can do it, what is the excuse for those that don't? |
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| Tranceplanted |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
This has been looked at in the past. It's not contitutional. First, making living without a residence illegal would be a violation of our freedom of mobility. Moreover, if the government mandates something that has a cost associated with it they must also provide for that cost to be covered by those that cannot pay it themselves.... in this case, the government would have to supply housing to all who could not afford it otherwise the law would be unenforcable. Finally, it is unconstitutional to force inmates to work in this country.... I cannot recall the citation but this was a recent (last 5 years or so) Supreme Court decision.
BTW, I like the idea... too bad the C of R and F doesn't allow for it. |
Is it really illegal to force inmates to work? So work gangs and such are all volunteer? Hmm, didn't know that, color me educated today.
Yeah, I kinda figured everything you said there, and didn't really think making it illegal to be homeless would fly, but the general gist is that there needs to be a centralized support and infrastructure that does more than simply provide shelters. And there definitely has to be some motivation for these individuals, and forcing them to provide a service I think is more beneficial for all (meaning mostly me, but hey, I'm a selfish bastard....:tongue3 )than hoping they'll simply turn it around on their own. Did not know specifically the things that were hampering that type of movement, so I officially call today not a waste. Back to playing Tiger Woods 2006..... |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Tranceplanted
Is it really illegal to force inmates to work? So work gangs and such are all volunteer? Hmm, didn't know that, color me educated today. |
Actually, they are usually either "community service" sentances (which are allowed because it is an alternative to incarceration... if you refuse the community service you can serve jail time instead), or they are paid.... that's right paid. We pay inmates to do the work you see them doing. We don't pay them very much (in the 20-50 cent range) but it isn't strictly volunteer. |
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| zoogla |
| quote: | Originally posted by chinamon
i think we should have a dedicated area in the city where all the homeless are confined and we can urinate on them. |
LOL I think you meant that with the best of intentions, i.e. to keep them warm in the winter, right? :wtf:
I understand your argument, Moral, but even your suggestion of indifference (i.e. allow the laws of nature to take care of it) will not help. Homeless people have a lot of time on their hands, and they don't have the restrictive lives that we have (e.g. work, study, family, etc.) so I'm pretty sure they will continue to beg until they die (like they do in Pakistan). And you have a steady stream of homeless people, whether from within the community or from outside, so this problem will never be solved whether you give loonies or not.
Therefore, if SOMEONE feels better from it (e.g. Floorwhore when he gives his loonie) why not? That's the only benefit. Your method doesn't help any more than his. Theoretically your suggestion would work, but it would never work in practicality--these people will NEVER stop begging--they've been doing it too long and they actually like it.
Back to the original message, arek, I think that's a great idea. If a whole bunch of other TAs show up at this thing, I would do (my normal friends are too snooty to give up their warm beds for this night)...who's up for this? |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by fayraree
I understand your argument, Moral, but even your suggestion of indifference (i.e. allow the laws of nature to take care of it) will not help. Homeless people have a lot of time on their hands, and they don't have the restrictive lives that we have (e.g. work, study, family, etc.) so I'm pretty sure they will continue to beg until they die (like they do in Pakistan). |
There's the key.... until they die.... if don't give them money they will die quicker. Some people would see this as a bad thing, however, I see it as the more humane way. Why let them continue to suffer when we can reduce their suffering by simply letting them die.
You don't waste resources trying to fix a wall that is so delapadated it will never be structurally sound, you destroy it and build a new one in it's place. |
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| Crazy Serb |
| quote: | Originally posted by Floorwhore
I dont think tossing a loonie to a homeless kid who wipes the off of my windshield really makes the situation worse. |
It helps him in a short-run, sure, but in the long-run it sets him up for failure... because he will now depend on YOU to toss him that loonie every single time he cleans your windshield. And he won't TRY to do something else to get off the streets.
| quote: | Originally posted by ChemEnhanced
I think you should hold off on feeling bad for them until you know why they are homeless. many are homeless due to there own actions....and refuse help when it is given to them. |
exactly...
and I still don't see the point of sleeping out (the original post) in the square? what good is that gonna do?
you're better off just donating some $$$ to one of the charities that deals with homeless or sending a few letters to the mayor... or a zillion other things. talking to homeless maybe? educating them that they're setting themselves up for a failure if they keep doing what they're doing? and it doesn't take you 12 hours of useless 'sleeping out' to do that. |
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| Tranceplanted |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Actually, they are usually either "community service" sentances (which are allowed because it is an alternative to incarceration... if you refuse the community service you can serve jail time instead), or they are paid.... that's right paid. We pay inmates to do the work you see them doing. We don't pay them very much (in the 20-50 cent range) but it isn't strictly volunteer. |
Oh, sorry, I was vague there, I suppose. What I meant by volunteer, was are they volunteering to do these services or jobs, or are they told to do them regardless of their own choice, which would more or less then be forced to work. I was already aware they were being paid a pittance when they do the work.
Community service is a different thing altogether, and don't really think it comes into play with this argument, since it wouldn't provide anything other than labour, but would still most likely leave them on the streets. |
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| Tranceplanted |
| quote: | Originally posted by Crazy Serb
It helps him in a short-run, sure, but in the long-run it sets him up for failure... because he will now depend on YOU to toss him that loonie every single time he cleans your windshield. And he won't TRY to do something else to get off the streets.
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Also, I think you have to question the quality of what your paying for.... my windshield is rarely ever cleaner afterwards.....:tongue2
Next time that happens, I'm just gonna say that one is on the house, just like I'd do if I received sub par service from any other business. |
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