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Do you want to do something about the homeless people you see? (pg. 4)
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| MarkT |
interesting discussion...my thoughts:
- the 'sleepout' is good for publicity and exerting a little political pressure...far from useless, but I'd suggest that every person who's willing to show up there donating even $10 to a local charity would result in *far* greater change than just sleeping in a park. Hell, do both!
- a significant percentage of the homeless are indeed mentally ill and in need of ongoing treatment. Problem: unless someone poses an imminent danger to either themselves or the public, you can't force them to obtain treatment. Many won't accept treatment and many aren't in the frame of mind to seek it out even if they do want it. It's a bit of a cyclical issue and I'm honeslty not sure how to solve it.
- quoting Nietzsche or natural selection is a bit harsh...maybe I'm naive, but I'd like to think our society is a bit more compassionate than a cold, elitist existentialist or one that subscribes to a survival-of-the-fittest mentality. Some people develop drug addictions and have a great support system of family, friends, employers, etc. to help them recover. some people don't and end up on the street. That's NOT natural selection...that's circumstance...and someone shouldn't have to suffer because they don't have the good fortune to have that support system that others enjoy.
Having said that, I think support systems SHOULD be factored into our social safety net. 'Back in the day', if you lost your job, your family helped you out...you didn't just immediately collect EI or go on welfare...what happened to the sense of obligation, pride, and compassion from families and friends? Problem again is that we can't legislate this...but we DO put it into practice in other areas, such as OSAP ("sorry, your parents earn enough to set aside money for your education"), so why we can't at least factor it into our social safety net is beyond me as well.
before I rant too much, I'll suggest this:
while it's great to send relief overseas, we also need to look after our own backyard too. Protests and demonstrations are great ways to raise awareness, but I trust that each and every one of us here can also afford to hand over *at least* $10-20 to a *local* charity.
If you're at a complete loss of where to send some of your pocket money, I'll suggest the United Way who have local agencies all over the country.
www.unitedway.ca |
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| VERTiG0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by chinamon
i think we should have a dedicated area in the city where all the homeless are confined and we can urinate on them. |
Hhahahah I laughed like hell |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by MarkT
- quoting Nietzsche or natural selection is a bit harsh...maybe I'm naive, but I'd like to think our society is a bit more compassionate than a cold, elitist existentialist or one that subscribes to a survival-of-the-fittest mentality. |
That's the problem.... people like to believe as you do but they are wrong. While Nietzsche may sound cold and uncarring he professes his position out of love. His contention is that by pitying people and helping them we really just allow them to continue to live in their sub-standard manner. He argues that if we were trully compasionate we would force them to face the worst of their situation. Once faced with the worst they will either rise to overcome it or they will perish before it. Either way they are better off then staying as they were...... kind of like putting a starving man in a room with a bear, either he'll beat the bear and no longer be starving or the bear with kill him.... both outcomes are better then dying of starvation. |
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| zoogla |
LOL I just reread my post and I realized I wrote, "normal friends" for my non-TA friends!!! LOLLLLL!!!!! :haha: :haha: :haha: That's right, you guys are all ABNORMAL :p :wtf: Sorry about that, I meant the friends I hang out with on a daily basis; the non-TA ones (but I'm beginning to hang out with my TA friends a bit more regularly now! :D)
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
if don't give them money they will die quicker...Why let them continue to suffer when we can reduce their suffering by simply letting them die. |
I'm not sure that a) they would die any quicker without money handed out on the street because there will always be places for them to go to survive: United Way, garbage dumps, etc. and b) whether they are actually all suffering (except for when they freeze their balls in the winter)...like I said, some may actually enjoy what they do (even you recognized that some might have RATIONALLY chosen this path of life). Even then, giving or taking loonie won't make any difference. What WILL make a difference is if registered charities stop taking care of poor people (not just homeless). Now THAT is something totally different, and if you're against that, then we've got some fightin' words to exchange :p
Oh, and of course you laughed like hell, Vertigo, you sadistic SOB :toocool: |
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| Moral Hazard |
| ^^^^ actually Fahad, I was refering to all charity as exacerbating the problem, not just those giving change. |
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| zoogla |
| Dude, you're living in the wrong hemisphere, then! :p |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by fayraree
Dude, you're living in the wrong hemisphere, then! :p |
No, I'm just ahead of my time. We're all still clinging to this outdated Christian morality here.... we haven't figured out that a) it doesn't work, and b) it actually exacerbates many of the problems we seek to solve by it. Once we realize that necessity trully is the best motivator and not all life is worth saving we'll be much better off. |
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| zoogla |
I'm sure Charles Manson told his cult that he was ahead of his time, too! :wtf:
Seriously, though, you benefit from the same Christian-based system that you criticize. The free-market system (yes I know it's not pure but you know what I mean), the media (even though it might be controlled--you have Internet), technology, tastes, personal style...this is all thanks to our economy and stable political system. I know you want to change a part of it (the charitable part) but that is a HUGE part of it!!! I don't think it's possible; the human nature of sympathy is far too embedded into our lives, cultures, GOVERNMENT (like it SHOULD be). |
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| Vivid Boy |
| quote: | Originally posted by arek
Do you want to do something about the homeless people you see?
Do you get tired of being asked for money every time you pass a homeless person? Do you get tired of being asked for change on your way to dinner at your favourite restaurant? Or on your way home?
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yeah im sick of it too. lets kick their in assess. TOGETHER PPL WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
GET A JOB BUMS! |
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| zoogla |
^^^^Uh, I just changed my mind.
Nevermind, Moral! :p |
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| Vivid Boy |
| i was thinking an awesome solution was to make a game show.....sorta like running man with arnold schwartzneger. but itll be a maze and each wrong cornber will be filled with things like alligator pits and in cool stuff like that. and if they make it to the end of the maze they get a million dollars worth of crack which they can cut with baking soda and sell on the streets and make double. itll all be televised |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by fayraree
Seriously, though, you benefit from the same Christian-based system that you criticize. The free-market system (yes I know it's not pure but you know what I mean), the media (even though it might be controlled--you have Internet), technology, tastes, personal style...this is all thanks to our economy and stable political system. I know you want to change a part of it (the charitable part) but that is a HUGE part of it!!! I don't think it's possible; the human nature of sympathy is far too embedded into our lives, cultures, GOVERNMENT (like it SHOULD be). |
You cannot equate the free-market system to being part and parcel with christian based morality or any other construct of Christianity. The system of trade and barter existed long before Christ.... hell it existed before Homo Sapien Sapiens..... IT'S OLDER THEN WE ARE! Being as everything else you mentioned is an off shoot of the economy I don't think the rest of your post needs to be addressed.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think all charity is bad. I'm a fascist, which is one of the most social political/economic ideologies. The problem I have particularly with homelessness (but also with other things such as sub-saharan starvation and excessive care for the terminally ill) is that we must learn to recognize that if the cost exceeds the benefit then we as a people are hurt, not helped, by it. With regard to helping the homeless..... it requires a lot of resources and gerneally does not yeild results that would outweigh those resources or even a demonstrably better quality of life for those we mean to help. Since this is the case our efforts hurt rather then help..... no amount of loonies or camping at city hall is going to change that. |
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