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Why France is Burning: Real Interviews with the youths
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| HardTranceProd |
You won't read this in your corn-fed sterile American press, that's for sure.
Enjoy this live-on-the-scene article by the Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/st...1637213,00.html
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'We hate France and France hates us'
· Rioters vent anger at government and police
· Curfews imposed under law used in Algerian war
Jon Henley in Sevran
They are gathered, as every night, on the edge of the car park at the foot of the block. Far enough into the shadows not to be easily seen; close enough to the stairwell to leg it inside if the police come near.
Sylla, Sossa, Karim, Rachid, Mounir and Samir are the names they give. The oldest is 21, the youngest 15. One is an apprentice plumber; another is on work experience as a cook at a cafe in nearby Aulnay-sous-Bois; one is claiming benefit; two are (sort of) at school. Three are "known to the police".
This estate, the Rougemont in Sevran, about 15 miles north of Paris, was one of the first to flare in France's outbreak of rolling urban violence, which has lasted 12 nights and in which nearly 6,000 cars have gone up in flames, dozens of schools, community centres and shops have been wrecked, and 1,500 people arrested.
There are many reasons for the violence. "Because we hate, because we're mad, because we've had it up to here," said Rachid, parka hood up against the cold. "Look around you. This place is , it's a dump. We have nothing here. There's nothing for us."
Sylla, 18, has a more specific target for his rage. "Les keufs, man, the cops. They're Sarkozy's and Sarkozy must go, he has to shut his mouth, say sorry or just off. He shows no respect. He calls us animals, he says he'll clean the cités with a power hose. He's made it worse, man. Every car that goes up, that's one more message for him."
The interior minister's forces, of which there are some 9,500 on duty around the country, are loathed. "They harass you, they hassle you, they insult you the whole time, ID checks now, scooter checks next. They call you ****** names," said Karim, 17. "I got caught the other week smoking on the train. OK, you shouldn't smoke on the train. But we get to Aulnay station, there are six cops waiting for us, three cars. They did the whole body search, they had me with my hands on the roof of the car. One said: 'Go back home, Arab. Screw your race'."
The prime minister, Dominique de Villepin, said yesterday that France would "guarantee public order to all its citizens", although the violence might take "some time" to quell. The government approved emergency measures announced on Monday, imposing curfews at local authorities' discretion. The penalty for those who violate them could be two months in jail.
On the streets after midnight on Monday, the measure provoked disbelief. "It's bad, it's really serious," said Djaoued, 21, a couple of miles down the road near the Chêne-Pointu estate in Clichy-sous-Bois, where the riots began on October 27.
"On the radio they said the last time they used that law was in the Algerian war. Is that stupid or what? Ninety percent of the people who live here are Arabs. What does that tell them? Fifty years later, you're still different? We're not allowed outside, and everyone else is?"
Back in Sevran, someone was attempting to set fire to George-Brassens college. Sirens wailed as half a dozen police cars and fire engines screamed along the Avenue André Rousseau.
"It's so easy," said Ali, 16. "You need a beer bottle, a bit of petrol or white spirit, a strip of rag and a lighter. Cars are better, though, when the tank goes. One of you smashes a window, the other lobs the bottle."
Ali's friend was an Arsenal fan: "Thierry Henry, man! But he never scores for France." Does he feel French? "We hate France and France hates us," he spat, refusing to give even his first name. "I don't know what I am. Here's not home; my gran's in Algeria. But in any case France is just ing with us. We're like mad dogs, you know? We bite everything we see. Go back to Paris, man."
Sylla summed it up. "We burn because it's the only way to make ourselves heard, because it's solidarity with the rest of the non-citizens in this country, with this whole underclass. Because it feels good to do something with your rage," he said.
"The guys whose cars get torched, they understand. OK, sometimes they do. We have to do this. Our parents, they should understand. They did nothing, they suffered in silence. We don't have a choice. We're sinking in , and France is standing on our heads. One way or another we're heading for prison. It might as well be for actually doing something."
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| So they're angry because they're criminals and because Sarkozy says he'll clean the streets of them? I'm sure if you'd have interviewed Al Capone he could rationalize his actions better than these jerks. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by HardTranceProd
You won't read this in your corn-fed sterile American press, that's for sure.
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Which part of this is it that you think will be left out of the American press? |
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| MisterOpus1 |
While I do understand that the situation in France is a bit more complicated and involves certain economic hardships and open-door immigrant policies, these kids must have to realize that their destructive behavior does them and the rest of their country much more harm than good in getting their point across.
Unfortunately they are young, stupid, and quite impressionable. Change will not occur by their violent actions. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Which part of this is it that you think will be left out of the American press? |
Yea I'm wondering that too. I pretty much heard the same arguments from kids they interviewed on NPR. The only difference is that the kids NPR interviewed were much more articulate and rational. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
these kids must have to realize that their destructive behavior does them and the rest of their country much more harm than good in getting their point across. |
While that is true in most countries, In France ppl pretty often do violent things to protest the government by creating chaos. Like the farmers that pretty much blocks whole towns if they dont get as they want to. And usually that is seen as something good. But this is seen as a catostrophy, even by the French. So imo, it is kinda silly that most dont realise the problems behind these "attacks".
I guess this is more destructive though, but still, violence as a way of protesting is nothing that uncommon in France. That said I do think these ppl deserve to get jailed for a long time. I just think they should treat other protesters the same. Never heard Nicolas Sarkozy call farmers scum after a short time of their protests. I mean the farmers would probably go nuts as well if they were told that by protesting in their French way. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| It's very obvious why the riots occured after reading this article (ofcourse it not a good thing). But the underlying reason are equally deplorable. And cops treating people like (especially minorities), isn't such a big surprise eigther (and neighter is racism). Come on guys. I'm not excusing them of all the damage they've done or the people who were hurt in the process, but France (atleast the govermnt and other institutions) are also largely responsible. |
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| HardTranceProd |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Yea I'm wondering that too. I pretty much heard the same arguments from kids they interviewed on NPR. The only difference is that the kids NPR interviewed were much more articulate and rational. |
When you hear "articulate" and "rational" comments from older youths, it's hard to understand the rage and desperation of the majority.
But when you hear strongly worded anger like "We hate France. We've had it up to here. Look around you. This place is . It's a dump. There's nothing for us here" - then you begin to get a glimpse of the real outrage. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by HardTranceProd
When you hear "articulate" and "rational" comments from older youths, it's hard to understand the rage and desperation of the majority.
But when you hear strongly worded anger like "We hate France. We've had it up to here. Look around you. This place is . It's a dump. There's nothing for us here" - then you begin to get a glimpse of the real outrage. |
+1 |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I'm not excusing them of [...], but France (atleast the govermnt and other institutions) are also largely responsible. |
That's a contradiction in terms. Shifting parts of blame from party A to party B *is* excusing party A. At least I can't come up with any other meaning for the word "excuse".:conf:
And, come to think of it, what is it in this report that constitutes the smoking gun? As far as I can see there's nothing new here. Nothing that hasn't been stated by the riot-apologists over and over before.:conf:
As to the horrific example of the youth (sounds much better than "rioter" btw.) getting caught breaking the law on smoking, I fail to see why this should cause such an outrage. I have a friend who were thrown in jail, because he refused to give up his name to a police officer, who refused to show my friend his badge. I've been yelled at for riding with no lights on my bike. Cops are s sometimes. Get over it - they're people too. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
That's a contradiction in terms. Shifting parts of blame from party A to party B *is* excusing party A. At least I can't come up with any other meaning for the word "excuse".:conf: |
No it isn't. Pointing out the mistakes of each party involded doesn't constitute shifting blame from party A to B or vice-vers, it's simply acknowledging what each party has done wrong. Trancaholic, you're a smart guy. You should understand better than anybody. In most cases if two parties are in conflict, it is usually not the case that either party is entirely free of blame or entirely guilty. Although this situation sucks, I don't think it's unusuall for a desperate and discontent group anywhere (especially one that isn't receiving equal treatment/is discriminated against), regardelss of what group it is, to reach a point where they just won't take it anymore and voice their frustration whichever way they can.
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
And, come to think of it, what is it in this report that constitutes the smoking gun? As far as I can see there's nothing new here. Nothing that hasn't been stated by the riot-apologists over and over before.:conf: |
I'm not an apologist. If there's a serious imbalance when a certain situation is being assessed and analyzed (especially when one group is unfairly being largely blamed for it), I view it a responsibility to balance the scale. The reason why the "apologists" are repeating the same thing over and over again is because people are ignoring or not giving due consideration to different aspects of the issue.
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
As to the horrific example of the youth (sounds much better than "rioter" btw.) getting caught breaking the law on smoking, I fail to see why this should cause such an outrage. I have a friend who were thrown in jail, because he refused to give up his name to a police officer, who refused to show my friend his badge. I've been yelled at for riding with no lights on my bike. Cops are s sometimes. Get over it - they're people too. |
I think you really missed the point here. You're focusing on micros instead of understanding the macro. The gist of the arcticle isn't a few incidences of unfair treatment, it's a repetitive pattern of unjust and unequall treatemnet. Ask a black man in the US how cops hasstle them and even arrest them for no reason (yes, this still happens). Quoting the article:
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Sylla, 18, has a more specific target for his rage. "Les keufs, man, the cops. They're Sarkozy's and Sarkozy must go, he has to shut his mouth, say sorry or just off. He shows no respect. He calls us animals, he says he'll clean the cités with a power hose. He's made it worse, man. Every car that goes up, that's one more message for him."
The interior minister's forces, of which there are some 9,500 on duty around the country, are loathed. "They harass you, they hassle you, they insult you the whole time, ID checks now, scooter checks next. They call you ****** names," said Karim, 17. "I got caught the other week smoking on the train. OK, you shouldn't smoke on the train. But we get to Aulnay station, there are six cops waiting for us, three cars. They did the whole body search, they had me with my hands on the roof of the car. One said: 'Go back home, Arab. Screw your race'. |
If someone where treated in this way consistanly, I wouldnt say "get over it." It's a fairly serious issue that needs to be addressed. What do you not understand about that?
P.S I'm not angry or mad. Now I'm responding very directly instead of trying to be very diplomatic and beating around the bush. |
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| Synthesia |
| There is NO justification for the riots whatsoever, end of story. |
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