|
Inexpliccable human behaviour - religious people please look in here (pg. 5)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| cbxzcm |
PsycoEwok, In my philosophy class we are heavily debating the existence of God. I would like to know how you would respond to these arguments. By the way, there are a many more arguments but I don't feel like typing them all yet.
1) God is omnipotent and wholly good, but why does evil exists in this world? All 3 of these premises can't be true, so either god isn't omnipotent, wholly good, or god doesn't exists.
2) You might say that God gave us free will. There is evil in the world because people can choose so. Let's say that a pedestrian sees a buliding on fire and could save a child in the building without causing harm to himself, but refuses to do so. This pedestrian would definately not be considered good. As taken by the words of B.C. Johnson, "If we would not consider a mortal human being good under these circumstances, what grounds could we possibly have for continuing to assert the goodness of an all-powerful God?" Why is it considered bad for a human to neglect helping someone in need, yet God does this all the time? Even animals and children are capable of doing "evil acts", but we don't believe they are accountable for their actions. Why is that?
3) A response to question #2 might be that "We should rely on ourselves when facing these disasters otherwise we would become dependant God". But, everyday people rely on docters, firemen, etc.. We can become dependent on these services just as much as we can on God. You might say that these doctors and firemen examples are a case of people helping people. However, in reality it is small minority helping the majority. If it is true that we should rely on ourselves when facing disasters then shouldn't we shut down all hospitals, fire departments, police, etc.?
4) You might say that evil is a necessary counterpart to evil. If this is true then a tiny speck of evil would allow this, but why is there so much evil in this world? It is not necessary to destroy innocent people. |
|
|
| u4ea:[soulstar] |
| quote: | Originally posted by PsycoEwok
Hehe yeah I actually kinda enjoy debating over this stuff. Hopefully I'm clearing up why I believe what I believe. If you don't share the same beliefs, that's perfectly fine with me. If my beliefs aren't true, then what can possibly happen to me when I die? If my beliefs are true however, then I can't wait to die, heh.
Well anyways, onto the question. It refers back to what I said before. Those who have never even heard of God are NOT going to hell. Why? Because God tries to give everyone a chance to ask Jesus for forgiveness of their sins. Are God's plans always carried out? Hell no. We humans, with our human nature, like to try to take matters into our own hands. Is God going to try to stop you or tell you you're going in the wrong direction? He most likely is. Though that doesn't mean that people will listen to God or even notice it's Him trying to tell the person that they're heading for trouble.
And yes, Hell is only increasing in population, but those people that are there all had their chance to ask God for forgiveness, but they blew it. Is God sad about this? I don't think words can describe his grief as he sees his children, his creation, burning in Hell and experiencing unimaginable agony. He doesn't want anyone to go to Hell, but God can not be blamed for ANY person being in Hell right now. They basically chose to be there because they blocked God out all their lives.
Oh and no they're not going to hell in my eyes, because there are so many people out there that I wish I could be. If it were all based on my opinion of whether someone should go to hell or not, then things would be a lot different. Everything I've said so far in any of my posts is either pulled directly from the Bible or is an inturpretation of it so that maybe everyone could understand it better. |
Your theory is incomplete and didn't directly answer the question. So if people in history [past, present, future] never heard of or believe in God, where do they go? Not heaven, not hell. Where?
My impression is your reaching the limit of understanding imposed by the Bible OT/NT. The fact is, I've been in a catholic system but I do not recognize God or ANY God-based mysticism. Mostly likely, I will never accept God, I am self-realist with [b]no[b/] belief structures anymore. So following your line of logic, I will go to Hell.
Another thing, your mystical experiences + beliefs do not equate to Totality of Truth. Any person with a different set of beliefs from yours can have mystical experiences. For example, I have reached Satori [approximation of Nirvana] a couple of times. But does my perceptual model reveals the Total Truth? No. There are millions of people with millions of different experiences + beliefs. Without putting yourself into perspective, you will follow what I call "pathocentricity of xian fundamentalists."
If you don't understand that phrase, I'll show you where beliefs are position on a hierachy and elaborate some more.
Here's some hints. I could use the Pali Canon [Theravadin] to entirely refute the Bible's infallibility. I could use Bardo [Tibetan] to explain the death and rebirth process. Simply, the Bible would have been better off as a theory instead of making claims in the objective reality. Such claims will be validated by epistemology, and it will not stand up to scrutiny.
Anyways, I've seen this type of discussion too many times, I'm sick of it. I'm practically tired of seeing the word "God", period. Christian folks use it to no end to fulfill a one-sided, one-dimensional argument -- never really grasping the ramifications, one of which is: Ultimate Truth is Unexistent. And another: Where the margin between Transcendence/Enlightenment and Delusion is non-existent for a believer ..Nor grasping the negative impact of psychology on hypnosis and trance, ego and super-ego [Freud], and why beliefs are illusive in every paradigm and religion -- even science.
....As for the topic, it's a matter of the experience of being close to the source of your devotion -- extension of expression. An outsider looking inside can't tell what is going on in the mind and heart of an insider. So all an outsider sees is mechanical rituals.
KtP
u:[s] |
|
|
| u4ea:[soulstar] |
| quote: | Originally posted by cbxzcm
PsycoEwok, In my philosophy class we are heavily debating the existence of God. I would like to know how you would respond to these arguments. By the way, there are a many more arguments but I don't feel like typing them all yet.
1) God is omnipotent and wholly good, but why does evil exists in this world? All 3 of these premises can't be true, so either god isn't omnipotent, wholly good, or god doesn't exists.
2) You might say that God gave us free will. There is evil in the world because people can choose so. Let's say that a pedestrian sees a buliding on fire and could save a child in the building without causing harm to himself, but refuses to do so. This pedestrian would definately not be considered good. As taken by the words of B.C. Johnson, "If we would not consider a mortal human being good under these circumstances, what grounds could we possibly have for continuing to assert the goodness of an all-powerful God?" Why is it considered bad for a human to neglect helping someone in need, yet God does this all the time? Even animals and children are capable of doing "evil acts", but we don't believe they are accountable for their actions. Why is that?
3) A response to question #2 might be that "We should rely on ourselves when facing these disasters otherwise we would become dependant God". But, everyday people rely on docters, firemen, etc.. We can become dependent on these services just as much as we can on God. You might say that these doctors and firemen examples are a case of people helping people. However, in reality it is small minority helping the majority. If it is true that we should rely on ourselves when facing disasters then shouldn't we shut down all hospitals, fire departments, police, etc.?
4) You might say that evil is a necessary counterpart to evil. If this is true then a tiny speck of evil would allow this, but why is there so much evil in this world? It is not necessary to destroy innocent people. |
Here's the short answer: Absolute Relativism is unequivocally inadequate.
:D |
|
|
| u4ea:[soulstar] |
Man, I seriously did not want to get involve in another debate but the ignorance is starting to phacking annoy me!!
| quote: | Originally posted by PsycoEwok
GAH you people are keeping me busy tonight :p
Ok ATB, your turn. :D
There are quite a few stories in the Bible that tell of people worshipping 'false' gods. And in most (if not all) cases, the one true God showed those people that He does indeed exist and is the only one that exists.
Why do I think that Allah is a false god? Because you never really hear of anything Allah is doing. Is he dead or something? Are all of the Muslims worshipping a dead god? Or a god that never even existed?
Truth is, the Bible has much more credibility than any other religions. If Christianity wasn't so powerful, then why is it that it's the most attacked religion?
So yes, people who have heard of God and heard how to ask Jesus for forgiveness of their sins ARE going to end up in Hell because they still choose to worship their own God. |
Well well well, I guess I was right, you are a pathocentric fundamentalist. More credibility? Cripes, sheer friggin ignorance is what I call it. But I'm not surprised. Yeah, I guess a billion chinese are headed to Hell than since there are like 10 sects of Buddha schools. while Ch'An school is the major one practiced in mainland China! Oh wait, I shouldn't forget Taoism and Confucianism too. They're all going into the fiery abyss of damnation! Oh yeah, A whole 3 milleniums of eastern/asian history of mysticism is going into, or will eventually, an imaginary plane of eternal suffering!
AND NO WAIT, YOU JUST PRETTY MUCH INSINUATED THAT SIDDHARTHA GAUTAMA, THE FIRST FOUNDER OF BUDDHIST TRADITION IS SOMEWHERE IN THE DEPTHS OF HELL!! .HAHA..
Do you know why Christainity gets attacked the most? It has nothing to do with how strong the faith became.. It is the strongest in the West. While Eastern [Buddhist] traditions and occidental systems dominate the East. Your argument is baseless. It's no wonder Christainity gets attacked -- because of it's total inability to balance phenomological knowledge and history with reason and flexibility. Its a self-closed [entropic] system of knowledge.
..Damn, now I know how Renegade feels. BAHAH :p |
|
|
| u4ea:[soulstar] |
| quote: | Originally posted by Juricimo
well i am a non-practicing Catholic. my friend, who is a very devoted Christian explained the whole thing to me one night. He stated to me that it wasnt good enough for me to be just a "good person" who tried his best to be a good person, respect everyone, and never try to "hurt anyone."
He stated Jesus died for all of us, so we could live our lives and that we deserve to pray and worship God/Jesus because Jesus died for us.
Everybody sins all the time. But that's ok since God forgives us if we ask for his forgiveness. So what is really the point???? Yes i sin;) ALL the time, and i dont ask for forgiveness. Does that make me a bad person and does that guarantee i will not go to heaven if there is a heaven?
I myself am not sure about whether God exists or not. I dont know what GOd is supposed to be. I'm the type of person that has come to the point that if i am to believe something i need to see it first. And that's just the way i function. I do think though, that there are "higher powers" than us humans, so if that "higher power" is what people call GOD, than let it be. I just cant label it GOD.
I'm just ALWAYz confused about this topic, and always seeking to find the answers, which unfortunately i dont think i'll ever get....i would write more but due to me being superstitious in a way....and all my thoughts right now, the best thing for me to do is ***knock on wood****
Respect to all religions.
>JM<
****edit***** i just thought of this......well, lets say i sin, ask for forgiveness, then sin again <--something that just by human nature i am not able to avoid, what is the point in the longrun. I will feel like a jackass for being a sinner, disobeying GOD, and probably get depressed or something, and sin more....it's a screwed up repeating cycle!!!!!!......i dunno...whatever..... |
I understand your confusion. You know what's causing it? It could be subliminal pressure from your living environment. What that means is your subconscious is taking in the information from a source (christainity). Depending on how strong you are willfully, you either integrate the source into your life or stand your ground.
Ever thought how your bad feelings about yourself are being amplified by an outside [persuasive] source and you keep perpepuating it? Meaning, you're probably making mountains out of molehills. :D |
|
|
| u4ea:[soulstar] |
| Oh, please excuse my pathetic attempt at eloquence. One of my rare off days. I hope I didn't offend anybody (uh) in particular. I say it like it is, it's fierce but no vengeance behind it. |
|
|
| Dmatrox |
"God is Dead" - Nietzsche
....may be but one thing is for sure....
"Neitzsche is Dead"
lol :) |
|
|
| PsycoEwok |
Pjotr G: Everything I've said so far has been exactly what the Bible says or it's either been my best interpretation of it so that people will understand it a little better. Anytime that I haven't been exactly sure of something, I've said so.
u4ea:[soulstar]: Ignorance? It's not like I've been a Christian my entire life. I've only been one for 4 years. I had quite a knowledge of science 4 years ago too. I knew what science said to try to 'prove' why we're here and how we got here. I then started going to church every Sunday with my parents, and the more I learned about God, the more I saw how much better of an explanation it has of how we came to be than what science did/does. I contrasted and compared tirelessly. Finally I just decided that the Christian beliefs did a better job of letting me know for sure of what is true and what isn't. And on top of that, I didn't really feel like risking an eternity in Hell if the Christian beliefs do turn out to be true. To say that Christians are ignorant of the 'facts' of science is really just an opinion. It's not like people just run straight into Christianity completely blind. They have to be convinced as well of why the Christian beliefs are true. What is a fact though is that people much like yourself turn to Christianity every single day.
cbxzcm: to answer your three questions/whatever (as best I can of course. I'm not really a machine here)...
1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but omnipotent is all-powerful right? (memory fails me) If that's it, then yes that is very true because God created the universe so I'd say he can do pretty much anything. And yes he is wholly good as well, because he is sinless. What does that have to do with evil in the world? If you're asking how evil came to be in the world, then that refers back to when Lucifer was one of God's most powerful angels (and if you haven't heard this story yet, take time to listen) and he began to feel greed and felt that he was better than God himself. For this, God created Hell and made Lucifer have to spend the rest of eternity there. Ok so now Lucifer is severely pissed at God, but he also knows now that he's much weaker than God. So how can he really hurt God without actually doing anything to him? He attacks God's children, all of us humans here on Earth. Ah and God gave man the freedom to choose what they want to do, so now they get to decide if they want to do what LOOKS good or do what IS good. The devil distracts humans from God by showing them all of these great-looking things that are only going to screw them up later on. That is the story of how evil came to be. (And please note, my interpretation of this story may or may not be 100% accurate. Like I said, I'm not a machine that knows all the answers here. I'm still learning.)
2nd question: God plays more of a role in people's lives than you may think. I take my dad for example. One night when he was 16 or so, he was out drinking and then proceeded to drive home with his friend. Well he was doing about 100 down a road when he suddenly ran into a pot-hole or something of the sort (can't remember exactly) and he lost control of the car. The car then ran off of a 20 foot drop-off, but while the car was hurtling torwards the ground (continuing to tilt downwards like most cars do) his front tires just barely caught onto a small rock that was sticking out from the cliff, and it made the car level back out just before it hit the ground, so he landed on all 4 wheels, a little shaken but not seriously injured. Most people would say he's lucky, but I don't think that anyone can ever be that 'lucky'. I'm convinced it was God that made my dad survive that crash. And now my dad is on a ministry team in church (which has seen many many people become forgiven of their sins) and sings in solo's in church quite often. See, God knew what he wanted my dad to become, and he showed him a lot of mercy so that he can be who he is today. That's an example of God interacting in someone's life. It happens all the time and probably has happened in your life a time or 2 as well. God doesn't neglect people. People just don't realize when God is helping them.
And what do you mean children and animals aren't held accountable for their actions? I know when I choose to do something wrong but do it anyways. I blame no one but myself when I do that. And my parents will hold me accountable of it too, as well as anyone else involved. And I have a cat that's always jumping up on the kitchen table, and he knows he's not supposed to be up there but he always smells food there and always tries to sneak a bite. We just squirt him with a spray bottle full of water to show him he's not to be up there, and he's slowly learning from it. I hold my cat accountable for his actions. I'm not going to say "Well I guess it's ok. If it wasn't for that food smelling so good you wouldn't be jumping up there." What am I trying to blame? The food?
Number 3: God WANTS you to ask him what to do in your life. Whenever a person has trouble deciding on something, they need to ask God for guidance and help on deciding. You SHOULD rely on God for making those decisions in your life that you're just not completely sure of. I'm sure it makes him feel good to know that you consider him to have better answers than yourself. Should you trust God to do every little thing for you? No, because then you'd just be extra weight and God needs people who will go out and tell other persons of how to ask for forgiveness of their sins. He doesn't need people lying around waiting for God to control them completely. He didn't create humans simply so he can do everything for them.
Number 4: Why is there so much evil in the world? Because humans continually dwell deeper and deeper into sin. More sin only brings more evil. |
|
|
| u4ea:[soulstar] |
PsychoEwok:
| quote: | | u4ea:[soulstar]: Ignorance? It's not like I've been a Christian my entire life. I've only been one for 4 years. I had quite a knowledge of science 4 years ago too. I knew what science said to try to 'prove' why we're here and how we got here. I then started going to church every Sunday with my parents, and the more I learned about God, the more I saw how much better of an explanation it has of how we came to be than what science did/does. I contrasted and compared tirelessly. Finally I just decided that the Christian beliefs did a better job of letting me know for sure of what is true and what isn't. And on top of that, I didn't really feel like risking an eternity in Hell if the Christian beliefs do turn out to be true. To say that Christians are ignorant of the 'facts' of science is really just an opinion. It's not like people just run straight into Christianity completely blind. They have to be convinced as well of why the Christian beliefs are true. What is a fact though is that people much like yourself turn to Christianity every single day |
WE ARE IGNORANT. WE HAVE BLIND SPOTS. That is a measurable observation from one individual to another. It cannot be denied as fact. When we realize that, we don't end up deluding ourselves.
And I wasn't referring to science but to Eastern Mysticism / occidental systems [ie: sorcery, magery], which DOES NOT recognize God-based religions! Guess they're going to Hell, aye? And yeah, you still DID not answer my first question? Or maybe just another classic case of a morass of indirection? ~_^
As for science, I cannot judge the speaker's character directly but I can measure his/her words for integrity and consistency indirectly Rither way, I measure every individual in any mystical denomination case by case. So my first observation still stands since you have very little understanding of any other mystical traditions outside Christianity. Your claims are distorted and lack ground-zero reality -- for the moment anyways.
And creationists denye the evolution theory. If Science followed such zealots, it would still be in the Dark Ages.. So don't go off belittling science's achievements and its trustworthiness.
That last comment: "What is a fact though is that people much like yourself turn to Christianity every single day."
It just reeks of self-righteousness. The moment you said christian beliefs are true, the moment the Nameless can be Named, the moment IT can be spoken, it is not Truth anymore.. And pretty much disregarded all other seekers and paths diametrically opposed to Christianity.
| quote: | | 2nd question: God plays more of a role in people's lives than you may think. I take my dad for example. One night when he was 16 or so, he was out drinking and then proceeded to drive home with his friend. Well he was doing about 100 down a road when he suddenly ran into a pot-hole or something of the sort (can't remember exactly) and he lost control of the car. The car then ran off of a 20 foot drop-off, but while the car was hurtling torwards the ground (continuing to tilt downwards like most cars do) his front tires just barely caught onto a small rock that was sticking out from the cliff, and it made the car level back out just before it hit the ground, so he landed on all 4 wheels, a little shaken but not seriously injured. Most people would say he's lucky, but I don't think that anyone can ever be that 'lucky'. I'm convinced it was God that made my dad survive that crash. And now my dad is on a ministry team in church (which has seen many many people become forgiven of their sins) and sings in solo's in church quite often. See, God knew what he wanted my dad to become, and he showed him a lot of mercy so that he can be who he is today. That's an example of God interacting in someone's life. It happens all the time and probably has happened in your life a time or 2 as well. God doesn't neglect people. People just don't realize when God is helping them. |
Negative. There countless unexplained cases of miracles in the world that has little to do with Christian-God. If I take the same scenario above and said: Quan Yin intervened to save a life [Father]. What's the difference? Is there an Ultimate Truth? Negative. A singular experience + set of beliefs does not equal any tangible form of Truth. All you have is a miniscule, dust particle-sized approximation to the an aggregate [Christianity], which is still singular to the aggregate [all mysticism, all sciences]. And guess what, THAT is still a singular approximate to ONLY this universe's aggregate [All possible , undetermined lifeforms / intelligence]. And so on and so on..
Though, I am not devaluing the impact it had on your Father's life, it's a matter of perspective conveyed since my initial post.
SIDENOTE: My experiences are quite contrary to yours. There were no visions and no voices, just silence -- just pure bliss and tranquility. The resonances and reverberations was inhuman and beyond even words to describe. There many books to fill all the libraries in the world to describe such delights but can never do justice. These experiences were the very essence of nirvana, how it was described in Buddhist traditions, and how Buddha achieved it.
The only difference between you and me is I'm not a pathocentric. I don't go spouting off Buddha [God]is the Truth and everything else is not. THat Buddha [God] is everywhere and everything.. Frankly, no matter how eloquent and well-spoken you are, the moment you mentioned how God is involved in everything, it's quite self-serving and very ego-centred. No matter how subtle or how indirect, it traces back to pathocentricity [derived from ego-centricism].. If you don't understand that, then maybe you'll understand it in the future when you learn about psychology..
| quote: | | Number 4: Why is there so much evil in the world? Because humans continually dwell deeper and deeper into sin. More sin only brings more evil. |
..Nice associative reasoning on the overall moral conscience of humanity with God, yet dissociates the rest on the phenomology of sin. And please, don't tell me we're all born into this world with original sin.. :rolleyes:
KtP
u:[s] |
|
|
| tru-Mac |
The God that Muslims believe in is the same as the God that Christians believe in: God of Abraham. Muslims just have a different name for it: Allah.
God HAS caused many conflicts around the world, most notably in the Palastinian/Jew conflict. When the Jews first wanted to make a state, they choose two sites: Argentina (or somewhere around that area) and Palastine. If the Jews went to ARgentina and made their state there, it wouldve solved the whole damn Palastinian issue. but NO, God said its the Chosen LAnd. So the JEws must return to the Chosen Land, and the load of trouble begins. |
|
|
| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lost
i go to church, Bible study, etc. because i also enjoy the spiritual guidance that i get from the pastoral staff. unfortunately, when left to my own devices, i do not study the Bible as much as i should, and i find that these structured environments help me to study. and i do not study the Bible because i feel that i need to otherwise God will be mad at me. for the longest time i never picked up my Bible but lately i've been feeling a great urge to get into it more. also i feel very refreshed after going to church and singing praise songs and worshipping God. those weeks when i am out of town or in a meeting and i miss church or Bible study then i feel like i'm dragging. as far as helping the church with their youth outreach, i do that because i feel that God has so richly blessed my life that i would like to attempt to return the favor to him. in no way by doing these things do i feel more religious than others or that i am earning my way into God's good graces or heaven or anything like that. in fact the only way to get to heaven or in God's good graces is through faith in Jesus Christ. i know a lot of you don't agree with this and when i have more time i will comment on what is already posted with my beliefs so we may have a discussion about it. i go by Ephesians 2:8-10 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
and as far as saying grace goes, i personally do not do that. there is no reason as to why i do not say grace, i just don't. i think if you said grace prior to every meal then you should do it because it is in your heart to thank the Lord for your food. you should not do it because you feel that you are required. God does not require you to do these things (going to church, saying grace, wearing a cross, etc.) but he requires that you have faith that Jesus Christ died on the cross to take away the sins of the world. that's it. i also wear a cross around my neck. i never did until my sister bought it for me for my 18th birthday. i actually like it. i'm real shy about talking about religion because peeps get all upset and angry. but by wearing my cross it is sort of an advertisement that i'm part of this group and i adhere to this ideology as renegade referred to in his first post. once again it doesn't make me any better or worse of a person for doing so. it is just how i choose to accesorize (sp?). i will refer to all the points made here over the next few days. interesting to see what everyone has to say. i hope i answered at least part of the original question for you trancaholic.
lost |
Very good and informative post. I'm a little curious though - what is bible studying? A memorization of the text, or evaluating different ways of interpreting (parts of) the text? |
|
|
| Pjotr G |
| This is getting old. You can't argue with someone that's not open to arguments. |
|
|
|
|
