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Inexpliccable human behaviour - religious people please look in here (pg. 7)
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| PsycoEwok |
I know it's insensitive, but I only state what the Bible says. I'm only the messanger here. Please try to understand this.
And Kia I really do feel deeply for the loss of your sister if that even means anything to you coming from me. Christianity is on a mission to try and stop like that from happening. I contribute as much as I can for that cause because I'm so sick of seeing things like what happened to your sister. |
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| Kia Kaha |
| quote: | Originally posted by PsycoEwok
I know it's insensitive, but I only state what the Bible says. I'm only the messanger here. Please try to understand this.
And Kia I really do feel deeply for the loss of your sister if that even means anything to you coming from me. |
So that's a 'Yes' then? And, believing that he can do things like that, you guys still actually want to spend eternity in the company of the dude? Weird :rolleyes:
Anyway he better have a in good explanation if I ever get to meet him, cos I think I'm gonna punch his almighty lights out for being a callous son of a bitch ... |
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| cweb |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kia Kaha
Anyway he better have a in good explanation if I ever get to meet him, cos I think I'm gonna punch his almighty lights out for being a callous son of a bitch ... |
Yeah will do the same....IF there's a good, he is definately not the good savior. look those problems we have and they're getting worser every second. If there's a good he failed miserably.
I rather believe Jesus was an alien than the son of a god. |
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| PsycoEwok |
Yeah, but you know, you can't really expect God to do anything about your problems if you don't ask'em for help or anything. Hehe he's not gonna help a person if he or she keeps thinking they can handle it all by themselves. :p That's why things just keep getting worse.
Kia, the drunk driver is the person to blame. I mean if you think about it, God really didn't play any part in your sister's death. The drunk driver did stuff that he wasn't supposed to be doing, and that lead up to the whole mess that happened. IF the drunkard bastard had not been drinking in the first place, then your sister could still be alive right now. |
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| Renegade |
| quote: | Originally posted by PsycoEwok
Kia, the drunk driver is the person to blame. I mean if you think about it, God really didn't play any part in your sister's death. The drunk driver did stuff that he wasn't supposed to be doing, and that lead up to the whole mess that happened. IF the drunkard bastard had not been drinking in the first place, then your sister could still be alive right now. |
Yeah but you've missed the point.
How come God decided to save your father - who was doing the wrong thing, regardless of what spin you put on it - but did nothing to save Kia Kaha's sister, who was wholy innocent? Why would a benevolent god save the guilty but not save the innocent? |
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| Kia Kaha |
Well OK PsychoEwok, lets make it as simple as we can. I'll put forward my argument against God, and you feel free to pick holes in it if you can.
Our basic scenario here is, something terrible happens to someone that doesn't really deserve it ... ie a little girl getting run over and killed. And we wanna determine why this has happened.
Working on the basis that there is a God, and he is all knowing and all powerful, there are as I see it 3 possible angles that he could have taken on this event -
1. He wanted it to happen
2. He didn't want it to happen.
3. He didn't really care either way.
Let's look at God's possible courses of action here and see how he scores.
Option 1 ... hmmmm, here we have an individual who gets off on killing little girls. Not very nice. Certainly not the sort of person I would want let loose on the streets, let alone be placed in charge of the universe to be honest :rolleyes:
Option 2 ... well, surely if he didn't want to happen and it happened anyway, that means that he is not all powerful after all - that there is something else out there that can cause things to happen against his will? Therefore, he's not actually the omnipotent God you think he is, and all you christians are seriously barking up the wrong tree by worshipping the dude.
Option 3 ... tricky one this. Surely if he could have stopped this thing from happening but he couldn't even be arsed to, then he's got even less compassion than Attila the in Hun? Hell, any normal bystander, given the chance to save that little girl's life (by maybe grabbing her and stopping her running onto the road or something) would surely have done so. So why wouldn't he? I think that to follow this chain of reason to its' conclusion can only admit that God is completely devoid of the slightest grain of human charity and compassion. Or perhaps he's like a kid that has some ants in a jar, and he just likes to stir us up every now and then to see what we do. Once again, that is not the sort of person that I would want in a position of responsibility, and certainly not one that deserves my eternal worship.
So there you have your options Ewok - you now have to choose whether your god is either (1) a callous murderer, (2) not really a god at all, or (3) a kind of mad scientist with a bunch of human bugs in a petri dish.
Put your great God-given sense of logical reason to work on that one ... and come back to us with an answer. Not with any of this 'well the bible says such-and-such' bull either ... I don't give a about the bible ... I wanna know what YOU think, not the rantings of some middle eastern nomads who wrote some dusty old scrolls a few dozen centuries ago. |
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| u4ea:[soulstar] |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kia Kaha
well Halle - loooo - yaaa! What a relief, that your old man survived that terrible accident and is now devoting his life to serving the Lord :rolleyes:
Hey psychoewok ... you smug little ... it was a drunken teenage driver just like your dad who in ran over and killed my 10 year old little sister, at 3 o'clock one afternoon on her way home from school a couple of years ago ... on her birthday :whip: :whip:
Was that God's will as well? Answer me that you little prick ... cos if it is I'd rather spend eternity burning in hell than spend it in the company of hypocrite s like you, or your God ... or your drunk driving Daddy :mad: |
Sickening, is not? Is there a perfect God? I feel for you Kia. :(:(
I'm more in feared of losing my loved ones than I am scared of spending my afterlife in eternity of the damned.
Even I disliked going off on psychoewok so I am sorry for my stupid spiels. His ignorance is not his fault in the end. Maybe one day, he might be able to see the shadows of corruption in the Bible and Christianity.. And that anybody can find God without shadows.
Psycewok: Then answer the question directly, do not evade and misdirect. It's bad sign.. Even if you don't know the answer then just say so. I can actually answer the question but its beyond the scope of this discussion because it is very complex, not as simple as the Bible says it is.
All I can say is I trust my eyes than I trust the words of God..
KtP
u:[s] |
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| PsycoEwok |
Ok Kia, here's what I think: (and remember, this is MY thoughts, not God's)
The reason that God didn't save your sister from her tragic death is simply because of sin. Since everyone is guilty of sin, the only innocent are the ones who are forgiven, so God doesn't see their sin anymore. (but about the driving issue, yes, the driver is the guilty one)
Ok, now, next part. The driver was drunk. That's a sin. Your sister was committing no sin from simply walking home from school. The driver hit her and killed her, and he is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life. (hopefully in jail) Now, this is of course where I get crossed up because I can't really know what the future holds. Perhaps your sister would have become a powerful speaker against God, persuading millions from believing in him. Perhaps she would have become a scientist that tried to disprove creationism. Or maybe she would have drank and drive herself and end up killing someone that was very loyal to God. The possibilities are nearly limitless. Anything from "just being used as an example" to "stopping a great catostrophe before it happens." I don't know, you don't know, NO ONE knows. There are reasons for everything happening, but it doesn't mean we can explain why they happened. Therefore I can't tell you WHY your sister was tragically killed, I can only tell you the possibilities.
Sometimes God is forced to make decisions he doesn't really like, just like humans have to sometime. I'm positive that he didn't WANT anything to happen to your sister, but then he may have let it happen anyways because of something that could have happened in the future. I mean what if she was driving your mom and/or dad to somewhere one day, and they had a crash and they ALL died. I know that losing 1 family member can be a very difficult time, but losing 3 would turn your life into a nightmare. He might have been doing you a favor, but you just don't know and neither do I, so don't take that as the reason.
Ok now I answered that as directly as I could. I don't see how I skipped over anything or didn't answer something fully. If I didn't, then just point it out to me and I'll correct it. |
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| Yoepus |
I've been lurking through this thread since it was started and thought it is time I added my few bits to the whole thing. :D
Firstly, to reply to Kia's question. The common reasons a believer in the one God, who is benevolent and omnipotent, believes your sister is not alive anymore is option 1 (ok maybe an exception to Christianity, as Psyco posted it is my understanding he believes it is option 3 as God could care less about your sister since she did not confess her 'sins' to Jesus :conf: ).
The theological reasoning for this, is not that God gets a thrill out of watching little girls die, but simply that he is impatient (Usually that he wanted your sister up there with him in Heaven rather then down here on earth). Or on the other side of things that she had achieved her purpose on earth (some people believe you are here for a determine amount of time to do something... you know the ones who believe it is the soul and not the body.. the 'neo-spritualist' :cool: ).
Secondly, there is something that I really do sit uneasy with regarding the whole God debate. The reason He did create humanity after all was to please himself -we must serve him and his will. The fanaticism of religion is the enslavement of the mind. The same mind God did not allow Adam to fill with Knowledge (which Adam did according to how it goes..) by eating the apple from the Tree of Knowledge --the one which Satan tempted Adam to eat by promising eating the fruit will make him a God (This is an interesting mix to the story as although I do not believe in the story, I do believe we are becoming Gods).
I digress, but for those who have made of God quite merciless Milton wrote it best: :whip:
Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n. (John Milton's Paradise Lost)
Thirdly, I will also congratulate Renegade on his interesting and thought provoking posts. Your theory to morality is quite interesting. You may not be to far off in your romanticizations of it either, there was one Psychologist who believed (I forgot his name, but hes in my Psych notebook if it is important for you I can look it up) that a part of the brain is devoted to the memories of your ancestors. So you might indeed have some recollections of your grand-grand-grand-grand-grandfathers experiences (maybe just one or two or something that stood out). From here he believed is where humans have the global archetypes common throughout humanity despite the different cultures (I don't remember what they were exactly, but the dragon was one of them I think, and identification of the good guy/bad guy sterotypes). Of course it would be hard to prove or disprove such a theory (just like God) but it is something that gets your mind sparked in a bit of curiosity none the less.
Fourthly, I personaly dislike the Christian religion the most as it has this underlying fundamentally to it that you must convert the whole population of the world to it (Islam has this to, but not so fanatically I believe). See the best thing the Christians got going for them in there quest to suppress.. umm convert... humanity is this argument:
Do you belive in hell? Ok no.. well say that there is a Hell and it is the worst thing possible, it is that image in your mind that you have come to known.. the flames, the constant agony and suffering.. the devil, the worst things absolutely imaginable happen to humans there. Just take a second and think of it, if you could do something to save another fellow human being from going to this unimaginable place would you do it?
Well there is away you can do it, and it does not take all that much from you.
You see there is this guy called Jesus and he died so you and other people don't need to go to that god-awful place.... all you have to do is love him (Jesus apparently had one of those psychological disorders where he had the unrealistic desire to have everyone on earth love him).
If you love Jesus with all your heart and confess to him, straight to heaven you go.. avoiding hell forever. And all you have to do to save other humans from going to Hell is just tell them to love Jesus too. (then the car salesman pitch) I mean what do you have to lose? Say I'm wrong and there is no hell... then what you don't go there. BUT what, say if for an odd coincidence I'm RIGHT?? then your doomed buddy! (there that's how they get you hocked)... Now all I need is a down payment and you probably want some insurance with that extended warranty too don't you?
Anyway, I hope I didn't convince any of you to be Christians as that was not my point, I am just showing you how easy their argument is to the simple minded. With that argument they get your hooked to their religion, from there they can say and do with your mind what they want.
Ok this is getting long, so LASTLY, an argument I've always used against the religious (yet it always seems to go over there heads leaving me disappointed) is this;
If you were to sin, commit a crime here on earth. Say you broke into a strangers house and stole $10,000 worth of stuff and killed someone in the process. Immediately after the crime(sin) what would be you first worry; Would it be 'Oh hell no I'm going to jail for the rest of my life.. what have I done!???', or would it be 'Oh hell no I'm going to hell for the rest of my life...'. If your seriously and genuinely answered the question you would come to the conclusion that people do not in fact fear the wrath of God upon their sins yet the social counterpart - the government. Only once you are rotting away in the Jails do you come to think, 'Oh hell, what is God gonna think?!'. It shows the hypocrisy that you are indeed first subordinate to your society, your government, and only then to your God. :p
Yoepus
God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist. :clown: |
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| jtanoyo1 |
| quote: | | It's not an automatic thing. You have to actually ask God for forgiveness for your sins. If you don't, then you're basically telling God that you don't care if you sin, so that would mean that Jesus's death was completely in vain. |
This reminds me of the movie DOGMA, where the 2 fallen angels realized precisely of this loophole and went around on a killing rampage right before they beg for forgiveness and became "pure" again.
....hm. Then again who says religions are not full of loopholes? |
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| FASTDJMP3 |
can't u see that u guys are making fools of yourselves ? :(
shame on you all , everyone is trying to show that he is the best because he believes in this and that or because he believes in nothing at all ... once again i'm really sorry to say that bust most of you know NOTHING about religions and God , go read some books , search the internet or whatever , debatting on the religions or the existance of God is not "trying to read God's mind" or saying "God is guilty for every negative thing that happens" ...
i really think this thread should be closed ... or renamed to "why did God do this to me" or "I know how God thinks" ...
shame on you once again :( |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by FASTDJMP3
can't u see that u guys are making fools of yourselves ? :(
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the exact opposite, i see guys in here expressing either their education or devotion
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shame on you all , everyone is trying to show that he is the best because he believes in this and that or because he believes in nothing at all ... once again i'm really sorry to say that bust most of you know NOTHING about religions and God , go read some books , search the internet or whatever ,
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excuse me i've seen more references here to philosophy, physcology, socioligy, and theology in here then in any other thread out here... seems like some guys here do know SOMETHING
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debating on the religions or the existance of God is not "trying to read God's mind" or saying "God is guilty for every negative thing that happens" ...
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it isnt. i think no one here said they are speaking on behalf of god, they speak from the heart in what they believe. i presonaly enjoy hearing everyones own beliefs, i mean doesnt everybody draw upon their surroundings to create their own beliefs?
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i really think this thread should be closed ...
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why? what is wrong with debate or freedom of expression i mean shesh are you going to go around closing a "what do you think about Paul Oakenfold" thread just because people in there have there own opinions or are not afraid to express them, even if they are uneducated. i can understand that maybe this is a heated topic but still i've seen flame wars much worse than this and the far majority here know how to conduct themselves. there have been a lot of great posts and it would be a shame to see this thread closed.
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shame on you once again :( |
i see no shame here by anyone.
[edit] taha, sorry if i came across to brass, dont take it personally its just that one of my pet peeves is supression of one's right to express themselves. i hate to see threads end prematuraly [/edit] |
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