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Inexpliccable human behaviour - religious people please look in here (pg. 8)
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| trancaholic |
First of all, I'd just want to say that I'm truly sorry for your loss Kia. I have a sister as well and I can't imagine the hurt in loosing her in such a way. I don't think that I myself would lose my faith as I have no illusions of a fair and just world, but I can easily understand why you have.
Secondly, fastdjmp3: I generally find that you're a jolly ta-member, but I have to strongly disagree with your post. I don't think that a thread should be closed because of arguments or subjects that might be considered perverse by some members. Closing should be an extreme measure reserved for threads that turn into genuine flaming, trashes TA (after all we're guests at Swampers place and should respect that) and threads that promote obsceneties such as nazism, fundamentalism etc.
Thirdly, I don't think that there's any reason for giving PsycoEwok such a hard time. All he's done is giving his views on God and explaining why he believes as he do - exactly like the rest of you do. In these matters there's no universal truth, and his choice of faith is just as fair as choosing not to believe.
If there's a higher meaning/deity pulling the strings somewhere, I don't think that we as humans can comprehend any possible line of thoughts guiding it. Categorizing choices into possible events and then eliminating them one by one is excellent for understanding the physical world, but won't necessarily help you understand the divine. (Although I did love Renegades proof of nonexistence of omnipotency, I have to admit:))
Lastly. Renegade. While appreciating that you explicitly stated that you did not claim this was the entire truth, your explanation of the origins of morality scared me a little: If our moral code is basically some kind of mental heritage from our ancestors, what makes it any stronger than any other neuroses or phobias that we have inherited? Elaborating on your point I'm suggesting that you'd be able to suppress moral responsibilities to the point of eradication and thus become a more "efficient" person, whereas a spiritual explanation would make such a change impossible.
My last point could easily be coupled with religion in stating that somehow religion is a benefit to society, but now I might be stretching it a bit :conf: |
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| Kia Kaha |
Well FastDJMP3 I don't hang in chillout that often, but to be honest I reckon what we're doing here is more constructive than posting pic's of 'hot clubber chicks' for hundreds of pages :rolleyes: ... at least people are thinking about issues you know?
I don't think anyone's seriously expecting to change anyone else's views here by posting in a music chat room on the internet, but I do honestly think from my point of view it's important to try and get some of these more fundamental religious people thinking about issues themselves instead of accepting what's spoon fed to them, and maybe even starting to become aware of the gaping, gaping holes in their own system of beliefs. Show them that when the chips are really down, the church has no more answers than anyone else has. I personally think it's one day gonna save them a lot of pain, on the day they ever have to work it out for themselves in the sort of circumstances that I had to.
You see Psychoewok I do actually have a clue about this ... I grew up in a deeply christian family ... my father is (was) a minister, and spent several years at Regent College, the theological college at University of British Columbia ... both my parents lost their own faith after the incident with my sister.
I've asked the same question I asked you, over the dinner table to a couple of the greatest living theologians in the world, people like J.I. Packer - and you know what - they can't answer it either ...
What I can tell you, is that it really hurts to see people that you once counted your good friends - people from the church - crossing the street to avoid talking to you, and you know it's because they just don't know what to say, because there is nothing they CAN say that won't cause them to analyse and ultimately deny their own belief system, and it makes them feel awkward to admit it.
As far as your argument goes psychoewok, I think what you're going for is my option 1 - saying that he killed her because he wanted to, as a kind of a punishment for something that she might have done in the future. Not what I expected, and probably going to open a heavy heavy theological can of worms ... but I don't think that even many christians would say that god works like that, simply because of the evidence of the people that are still running around on this planet. He let Osama bin Laden live to be a man ... he could pretty easily have given Hitler a case of cot death if he wanted to ... but he didn't. He lets thousands of African babies die of starvation and disease every day (and only a handful of American ones) ... does that mean that Africans are just naturally destined to grow up and offend god or something?
And - your other argument - I interpret your thinking there, as that maybe god was only doing it as a preventative measure to save me from more heartbreak later on in life? Well all I have to say is for s sake, if that was his plan (which I don't believe it was), why did he decide to do it in such a particularly nasty fashion? I don't want to go into details here but I'm sure you can imagine that a high speed road accident is not exactly the way to minimize the all-round suffering of everyone else involved ... I just can't buy into it as something that any reasoning person (or deity) would wish on anyone. |
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| Lost |
| quote: | Originally posted by jtanoyo1
This reminds me of the movie DOGMA, where the 2 fallen angels realized precisely of this loophole and went around on a killing rampage right before they beg for forgiveness and became "pure" again.
....hm. Then again who says religions are not full of loopholes? |
i'm tired of people taking concepts out of the Bible without doing further research to better define the concept. let me do my best to explain with what evidence i have from the Bible. so as i said before Ephesians 2:8-10 states "For it is by grace you have been saved, thorugh faith - and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." so simply stated, it is by faith that we are saved and not by and works that we can do. this always prompts the retort similar to the one posted above or one posted earlier about what if person A does good all his life and never accepts Christ and person B does some bad things but then feels trully repentant and believes in Christ to forgive him of his sins. then does person A go to hell and person B go to heaven? so let me try to illuminate.
as far as the above example goes, it is by faith that you are saved, but it is by deeds that your faith is made complete. James 2:14-26 "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, 'Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,' but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, 'You have faith, I have deeds.'
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,' and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."
therefore, if one is claimed to be saved through Christ and one continues to willfully destroy, such as in the dogma example, then one is not truly saved since their faith is not justified by their actions. so to clarify, it is faith that saves you and works that justify your faith. anyone can claim to have faith, but it is their deeds that justify them.
now, continuing to use the dogma example, they think they have a loophole in the system by doing bad things and then premeditatively asking for forgiveness. however 1 Chronicles 28:9 states "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever." therefore, if the motives behind their repentance were not pure brokenness over their sins but a means of "cheating the system" then it will not be honored and they will have to face the consequences of their actions for the Lord knows the thoughts of man. therefore, although their minds perceived a loophole, one did not truly exist if only they had taken more time to study the guidelines the Lord had set out for them.
will refer to other example in a bit. late for a meeting.
lost |
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| Pjotr G |
what I find strange in the reasoning from psykoewok regarding God taking someones life to prevent further suffering is the following:
If God made the girl get hit by a car, to prevent her driving herself and both parent to death in an accident.....if he had the power to do that....WHY didn't he just let her live and intervene at the later car accident, making them all live on.
And I don't believe in that maybe she would grow up to be against God stuff.
I guess the reasoning in the spirit off "Her work here was done, she was all fit for heaven" is more acceptable. |
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| cheesenip |
i don't seee how Christianity can have so many denominations. How is one book (bible) "interpreted" into many ways? doesn't it defeat the purpose of our religion? I mean you worship the same god and book, yet you still think differently. Buddhism is more a philosophy and a way of life, yet I'm not too sure on the denominations in there but i know that there are more than one.
i don't mess with religion and it doesn't mess with me. and all you christians that go door-to-door trying to convert people... next time... im gonna slam the door on you. |
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| PsycoEwok |
Pjotr G: God could have very well done that too. I can't explain why God let happen what had happened, but I can pull a part of a story out of the Bible to maybe help explain some, or maybe just to entertain you. Either way I think it fits.
(note that this is my little summary of the story, not quoting the Bible word for word)
"King David (the same David that killed Goliath) was the ruler of a great nation, which was basically a gift to him from God for being so faithful and everything. One night, David was looking out over the town surrounding his palace. (or whatever it was) He noticed a beautiful young woman named Basheba (bash-ee-buh) who was bathing on top of the roof of her house. (which makes since, because that way no one from the streets could see you) David grew lustful and commanded his guards to bring Basheba to him. Eventually they ended up having sex and Basheba became pregnant. Basheba was also a married woman, whos husband was out with the army loyally battling for King David. So to make sure that her husband never found out about his and Basheba's courtship, he sent a command to move her husband to the front lines of battle. (and it didn't take a genius to realize that everyone on the front lines would die) So he was killed, and David kept Basheba all to himself. Well later on, God told David (i can't remember how he told him though, mind went blank) that because of the sins he had commited, his first son would die while still an infant. And of course it then got very sick and ended up dieing."
And that's about all of the story that's important for this situation. Now I'm not accusing anyone or saying that this is why Kia's sister was killed, but simply stating that this is yet another possibility. See, God is usually more strict on the people who faithfully follow him as best they can. This way, He can ensure that they'll realize what things they've done wrong and why they should correct themselves. It's a gradual thing. So the reason why he might have let David's baby die, instead of letting the baby, of a person who's completely against God, die, is because David was a devout Christian and he knew for a fact that God wouldn't like it. But the non-believer, since he doesn't believe in God, had a healthy baby. I know that sounds very crossed up but please just take a moment to think about it. What kind of an example would David be of the Christian religion if people knew he had been having sex with Basheba? "You know, I heard that king David has been having sex with our next door neighbor. Isn't he supposed to be a Christian or something? What makes Christians so different from us if he's doing everything that non-christians do?" See, he was setting a bad example and was punished for it. But no one is going to say anything about a non-believer doing exactly what David did, because it's supposedly just a common thing that happens everyday among society. So the view and reputation of Christianity is hurt.
So seeing that Kia grew up in a deeply Christian family, God was probably a little more strict on them than other families. Therefore the consequences of doing things that a person knows he or she shouldn't be doing will most likely be worse as well. (and again he only does it to make them even better people, like a parent disciplining a child) And that leads up to my last post stating that the accident MAY have happened because of sin. Maybe the family or a person in the family continuously did something that he or she knew God didn't like. Again, I don't know, and so I'm not even trying to say that it's fact. Just thought I'd tell what was on my mind about it.
And Kia, I do hope that your sister is in a better place now. It'd be cool to meet her one day.
Best wishes to you. |
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| Yoepus |
Lost,
Your explination might seem logical and rational in a religious context, as you explain that it is not your belief in God (read Jesus) but your belief and good deeds that get your into heaven.:eyes:
However, their is one problem with this. You quote, quotes that quote acts or deeds of the Old Testemant. Now Judisim is a much more rational religion then Christanity and their bible laid a very nice literary title for the morale code of human beings in the time it was written. You have one quote not related to it;
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Ephesians 2:8-10 states "For it is by grace you have been saved, thorugh faith - and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." |
However I read, and reread this and it says what you advocate against: "you have been saved, through faith - and this not of yourselves (meaning faith in God/Jesus)". It goes on to say that we were created to do good works, but it doesn't say doing good works will save you.. it says faith will save you.
The other quotes; James 2:14-26 (this is the abraham one). Here he quotes from the Jewish theological reasoning --that faith alone will get you no where, and that you should put good deeds with (or even above) faith... and of course Jews believe all people are Gods creation and he would not send any of them to hell (which means in Judisim they don't beleive in a Hell either.. why doesn't James quote this to? but I digress again). Quoting the Old Testemant in these affairs is silly as by this time Jesus had not 'died in salvation of humanity' and therefore asking Jesus for forgiveness was not an available loophole. You would only get to heaven (and still do if you believe in Judisim) by good deeds and faith in that order.
Your last quote;
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Chronicles 28:9 states "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever." |
This quote is nice as it combines the previous ones in two. First of all it specifically says "If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever." -So if you don't have faith your screwed, if you do hey what do you know your saved. And then it mixes the Jewish aspect of course, as Jesus had not died yet.
Well there, the loophole still stands..:p please feel free to kill someone and pray to Jesus for forgiveness (and make a donation to the Church.. thats a good deed right?) and your right on your to heaven.:o
Yoepus
"The right to swing my fist ends where the other mans nose begins" |
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| Yoepus |
OMG!!! (excuse the pun)
| quote: | | "You know, I heard that king David has been having sex with our next door neighbor. Isn't he supposed to be a Christian or something? What makes Christians so different from us if he's doing everything that non-christians do?" |
For heaven sake, thank God that Psyco is educated in the Book.. good thing he didn't mistake King David, as a Jew who was the second King to the Hebrews, 'God's Chosen people', who for some odd reason where all Jews. :eek: INCASE you didn't know David was a Jew, and for that fact so was Jesus.
And although you tell the story fairly true (She is Batsheva though).. David did have sex with one of his Officer's wife (after all if the women was near the palace her Husband had to be pretty high up and important). And to show literary irony (The Old Testemant is really a great work of art in that sence) David informed his Officer he wanted him to move up and take charge of the frontline. Which he did showing great loyalty to his King (as he know his chances of dying were great, and he could of disobyed the order and nothing would have happened), despite the fact that the King did not show a bit of loyalty to his Officer.
Anyway, as I recall David's punishment for the sin was not the death of the baby (I'm not sure she actually got pregnent either... but say she did having the baby of your concubine die an't really that rough of a punishment... espeically in those days when birth mortalities were greater. its not like the thing was the son of the queen or anything either). God's punishment for the sin was the fact that David would not have a strong Monarchy. It would fall apart after his son would rule. And infact it did, his grandsons had broken the country into two and the throne was not set between them.. both claimed the throne and threw the nation into a long civil war.
Now I'm not sure about this, but also the fact that David could not build the Great Temple to God (yet he designed nad planned it) could have also been a factor in the punishment. Though as I recall this was due to the fact that David was a man of war, and the temple was to be built by a man of peace (therefore his son).
I may be a bit shady on my Biblical readings, but at least I don't claim association to an institutionalized religion which bases these books at its core.
Yoepus
Stop the bombing! Your hurting the camels!
GOD SAVE THE CAMELS! |
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| PsycoEwok |
Yoepus: What Lost is saying is that if you ask God for forgiveness but then don't make any changes in your life whatsoever, then the person either (A) Wasn't actually serious about it, or (B) Didn't completely understand what he or she was doing. If a person seriously asks Jesus to come into their heart, then I highly doubt that they'll leave their life exactly how it is. If they leave their life unchanged (such as not going to church, reading the bible, praying, or at least getting rid of their alcohol or cigarettes if they have any) then nothing about the person has actually changed, so their feelings for everything, including God, are still the same. But I personally think it's impossible to SERIOUSLY ask God for forgiveness and then do nothing to make your life a little better. So it is true that without being forgiven by God, you're still on your way to hell. Asking God to come into your heart and then not doing anything about your life is what the scriptures are talking against. (the ones that Lost quoted) seriously asking God to forgive you is what it takes to get you into Heaven, but along with your salvation, you need to show God (though he knows if you meant it or not) that you're serious about wanting to be faithful to him. And again, like I said before, I don't believe it's possible to really be saved and then not change a thing in your life. Because if you meant it when you asked God for forgiveness, then surely you would try to obey his laws and commandments along with it.
And there is NO loophole to begin with. If a person asks for forgiveness, I'm pretty certain that God is going to know WHY they're asking for forgiveness, whether it be because they really are sorry for what they've done, or if it's the person just trying to get a cheap ticket into Heaven. He will know, and he isn't going to honor any pleads for salvation if the person is doing it for himself, not God. (Yes you do it for God. You're telling him that you're sorry for not following him and that you need him to take control of your life.)
Oh and to correct you about one thing: In the old testament, sacrifices were made to God whenever a person wished to have forgiveness. A white, spotless lamb would be taken to the altar and then would be sacrificed to God for the person's sins. (though faith and good works for God was as important then as it is today.)When Jesus came, he was the ultimate sacrifice, the pure, perfect lamb. He died for everyone's sins, not just one person (like how a lamb was sacrificed as stated above). So it made it all even easier to get forgiveness from God. Now all people have to do is truly desire salvation and just ask God for it.
(Just read your 2nd post): Yes Bathsheba had David's son. I just re-read the story and it does plainly say that she bore David's son. And 2nd Samual 12:13 - Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan replied, "The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the Lord show utter contempt, the son born to you will die."
So yes their son died. And also, God said that David's kingdom wouldn't prosper either. I just didn't include the part about the kingdom falling because I didn't think it had much to do with the topic that that post was originally meant for. (talking about Kia's sister's death) |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: |
When Jesus came, he was the ultimate sacrifice, the pure, perfect lamb. He died for everyone's sins, not just one person (like how a lamb was sacrificed as stated above). So it made it all even easier to get forgiveness from God. Now all people have to do is truly desire salvation and just ask God for it. |
Oh so THATs why Jesus died... So we don't have to sacrafise poor little lambs (umm yummy) to ask for forgiveness. To bad.. if I only knew old 'billy here would still be with us (and not in us). :( Oh well he was good eatin.
BTW you do not sacrifise something to God in hopes he will forgive you, but you do it in hopes to please him (you say Bribe, I say contribution ;) ).
And although fanatical jews will disagree with this statement the only reasons sacrifises were premited is that it fed the priests (they got to chose the best part from the BBQ lamb before everyone else ate) and that it was a leftover from the worshiping of mutliple Gods. This helpt get the polytheisit into the new monotheist religion.. they already banished so many truths of polythesit religion they had to leave something in there to get the people.
And last, Psyco your reply to my argument was an emotional plea with no logical or rational base for me to prove or disprove. Lost at least made an attempt to justify his believe by providing facts and a logical conclusion. However, this in my opinion should be nullified after a careful examination of his sources.
Yoepus
An idiotproof thing just helps evolution in creating better adapted idiots. |
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| PsycoEwok |
| Yoepus: Jesus didn't die JUST for 1 reason. By being killed, it showed the world (or at least those with an open mind) that God loves everyone on this earth enough to send his only son just to die for us. It was kinda like God's way of proving his love for us. And (i'm not 100% sure about this) I don't think that the sacrifices to God were 'eaten'. If memory serves me correctly, the lambs were slaughtered upon an altar and were also set on fire, but again I can't say for certain that's true. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by PsycoEwok
Jesus didn't die JUST for 1 reason. By being killed, it showed the world (or at least those with an open mind) that God loves everyone on this earth enough to send his only son just to die for us. It was kinda like God's way of proving his love for us. |
What??? God's only child? :( He told me I was his child!:mad:
I thought we were all God's children.. we were all his sons. Many of his sons die everyday, perhaps that should also be proof how much he loves us.
I never understood the Christian debate regarding Jesus's validation. He after all is not a god himself, and therefore a Godson (ehh)
since that would make all Christians violate the commandment 'though shall loveth only one God, and he shalth be Me!' (thats not a direct quote from the Old Testemant:) ). As I understand Christians believe Jesus, God, and this Holy Ghost guy are all the same person in reality (talk about split personalities).. and something along those lines. So how could Jesus be God's 'only Godson' without being a God (or at least half God.. and therefore nulliying a 'sacred' commandement.. thereby making God himself obsolete since he wasn't capable of writing rules in stone that he was capable to honor himself).
Now about the sacrafise part. How did Jesus sacrifise himself?? He surely didn't kill himself? Perhaps he did so by sticking around Jerusalem where a warrent was out on his head thereby ensuring his death. Well if he knew this and didn't flee isn't he guilty of suicide then? I thought you weren't supposed to do that.. and If he didn't know, that people were going to kill him (well I thought he was a split personality of God, and if that doesn't work.. then that must mean hes not God since God is all knowing.. and therefore he must be a Godson (nullifying that commandment))...
Confusing isn't it? Exactly, it is hard enough to try and believe God exsist.. making someone try go believe he either has split personalities.. or a few god friends is sort of far fetched.. Luckly you have that Hell thing going for you to convience people not to question these type of things.
And further one more point on the Jesus God.. uhh guy, If he is a God or his split personality, whichever it is (anyway I will reference Paridise Lost as it makes some more sence). Jesus was sitting on the 'throne' with his Dad and that Ghost guy before they made humans. He lived in Heaven, and one day he said hey I'm going to earth.. So was born via a Mary and walla now he is Human. Then he saw what a horrible place and wanted to go back to Heaven.. aka a sacrifise. What kind of a sacrifise is that??? Killing yourself when you know for ABSOLUTE certain you are going into heaven. If I kill myself for some cause it is a sacrfise because there I'm dead and I don't know if I will ever think or breath again, let alone go to Heaven or Hell. Dying on purpose when you know your the son of God and going to heaven is a little far fetch to consider as a Sacrifse in my book.
I just want this Jesus guy to leave me alone.. I don't love him and I don't want him to love me. God on the otherhand I'm always keeping my fingers crossed for, not in faith but by making good deeds.. I want to believe in a God, and by God I hope there is a God, but I fear and have come to realize that there is no God.. or at least not one in any sense that we have come to understand.
Wow.. I didn't know that was going to be so long.. I just wanted to say technically, 'we are all God's children'. Was Moses not a son of God, was Abraham not a son of God?
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And (i'm not 100% sure about this)
I don't think that the sacrifices to God were 'eaten'. If memory serves me correctly, the lambs were slaughtered upon an altar and were also set on fire, but again I can't say for certain that's true. [/B] |
You your wrong. After all why go to the trouble of killing the animal in a Kosher fashion if your not going to eat thing thing? :stongue:
The priest are incharge of the killing, and pick the best piece. The sacrifise is a great festivile (read fun family BBQ) where all that is really sacrifised to god is the 'smoke' of the animal. The animals life is sacrifised.... Thats why it always smells like a BBQ up there in heaven too (in case you ever come to wonder when your up there):)
Oh well.. to long.
Yoepus
All who do not kill shall be killed, unless they have friends who are in politics. |
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