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No more help to Palestine (pg. 2)
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
@shaolin: I'm somewhat surprised that you could read a charge of anti-semitism from Mister Opus' post. |
I didn't. It was only a precautionary thing like "just incase you try to pull this card on me" which people have done in the past, and many people do, when you're critical of Israeli policy. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned it, but considering the how aften people eigther make this assumption, or blatantly accuse you of it, I thought I should make it clear beforehand. I guess it didn't come out right.
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
As far as I can see, it deals only with the need for Hamas to realize how the world looks like today, and that one of the traits of the modern world, is that you have to use diplomacy rather than terror, if you want support from the west. |
I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but it's pretty understandable why they'd resort to that, given the situation. It's pretty arrogant of us to sit here in the West with all sorts of comfort and luxuries, and judge other people actions which are a prduct of hving lived in some of the worst of circumstances (i.e. humiliating and brutal occupation). What the heck do you expect them to act like?
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Assuming for the moment that you're right in stating that the state of Israel is as morally and legally problematic as Hamas, I ask you why that entails that withholding aid requires a double standard? The EU does not fund Israel. |
Well, it's true that EU doesn't fund Israel. But that was besides the point. The US still does and I don't hear anyone talking about the US cutting off aid to Israel.
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Furthermore, you see this as a punishment. To say so you must think that Palestinians somehow has a *right* to this money. As I see it, the money belong to the west, and it can spend it as it see fit. A punishment, on the other hand, would be something like sanctions. |
No, I don't necessarily think they have a *right* to this money, they could certainly use it though and, hence, need it. But they do have the *right* to never have been in this situation in the first place.
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Anyway, you never answered my direct question: What kind of regime would, in your opinion, warrant the cutting of aid? |
I don't think any Palestinian regime could possibly be a threat to Israel. Israel is strong and Palestine is weak. It's as simple as that. If that balance were tipped, then I think you should cut off aid to any Palestinian regieme excersizing that power abusively and aggresively. |
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| MisterOpus1 |
Argh. Definitely walked into a hornet's nest on this one.
Again, keep in mind, I do not keep up as much as I probably should with the Israeli Palestinian conflict, so please understand that what I am saying is mere opinion and not as supported by passion or evidence as some of my other topics of interest.
With that said, let me try to address your points:
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Now we have to look at how the state of Israel was created in the first place. The British mandate led to the partition of Palestine in 1947 and gave Israel to the zionists (the rationale being to solve the conflict between European immigrant jews and the Arabs). Now if you're going to claim that the original reason for the tension between the European immigrant jews and Arabs was due to anti-semitism, that's ludicrous at best, considreing that Jews, Christains, and Muslims had been living in peace there before that. |
I believe tranceaholic answered this for me well, and I understand you are taking a precautionary step with your reply here. Rest assured it's not necessary. I think you can very well judge from my posts in the past that I am neither a racist or anti-semitist in any manner. There's no need to pull that card when the condition is nonexistent.
| quote: | Now there is no legitimacy of Britain giving Israel to the zionist in the first place. No one originally backed Israel, including the US, until they realized the advantages they would get in doing so.
Seconed point, it's not like Israel hasn't engaged in countless acts of aggression and collective punishment against the Palestinians, violated countless UN resolution and shown no heed for international law whatsoever from it's inception till this day.
So your argument about "legitimacy" holds no water to begin with. What "legitimacy" did Britain and other memeber of the international community have to give Israel to zionist in the first place? And keeping in mind Israel constant military aggression and illegal expansion of bourdries, what makes them any more "legitimate" than Hamas? |
I'm not in the expertise to judge whether or not your historical version of events are accurate, but I'll fully grant them at face value for now and agree with you on these events. And I'll even agree with you that I think you have a point regarding a sense of "double-standard" in that I should hold the Israelis to the same standard.
Fair enough. I have and will continue to do so. I acknowledge their aggression, I acknowledge their illegality of land taken from the Palestinians. I acknowledge that in many respects their hard lined methodology in dealing with this conflict should have been tempered and re-evaluated much more.
And that still leads to the questions of:
1. What now?
2. And where the hell do we go from here?
Now the only nonreliable source I have about Israel was a quib on NPR the other day, but the commentator mentioned that Israelis, for the most part, are tired of this hard-lined approach. They are weary as hell with the conflict, and just want peace. If we are to accept this notion, then I think Israel is beginning to step in the right direction.
However, can we say the same about the Palestinians who voted in the very group that is Israel's biggest enemy at present? Does this entail any possibility of peace from this conflict by electing the terrorist faction into government that doesn't even recognize Israel and wants them wiped off the map? By all accounts it appears this is exactly a step in the wrong direction for the Palestinians, and those that are giving them charity are directly telling them this by taking such charity away.
I recognize Israel's part in this ing mess, so let's be clear on that. But it does appear to me that in direct regards to the Palestinians, this was not a step in the right direction for them. I do think we can both agree with that.
| quote: | | The Palestinians have gotton nothing but screwed since the creation of the state of Isreal. Israel has gradualy ILLEGALY expanding it's boundries and used brutal coercive tactics, not just on "terrorist" but also civilians........ |
Again, I recognize and accept this. Perhaps you can clarify something to me since my only source was a former Israeli political official on NPR - do you believe Israel is taking the necessary steps (perhaps very slowly) toward peace with their neighbors?
| quote: | | Yeah, neigther does Isreal. |
Point taken.
| quote: | | And is this supposed to be a change in attitude for them by the West (not all of it, only the contries relevant to with some level of involvement in the conflict) and Israel? |
Obviously it didn't change much, but only strengthened their defiance. We will see how long that defiance holds up, however. Again, I do think the EU was correct in pulling out aid to the Palestinians for voting in a terrorist faction into their government. It was the right of the EU to do what they wish with their aid and money, and I do see the action as just for refusing to support such a terrorist network that refuses to denounce their words that Israel should be wiped off the map.
| quote: | | Anyways, before you go making any assumptions, let me make it clear that eventhough I think the creation of the state of Israel, by taking it away from it's indiginous inhabitant and giving it to foreign immigrants, who wanted it exclusively for themselves, is completely wrong, I still don't have a problem with Jews settling down in the region. All I want is for them and the Palestinians to get along. It's good for everyone. |
No assumptions were created. I pretty much knew this was your stance regardless, so no sweat there.
| quote: | | The only way to solve a problem is to deal with the root cause of it, and the root cause of it isn't anti-semitism..... |
I believe we covered this earlier, so no need to rehash that which does not exist, okay? |
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| Yoepus |
Its odd, I never really thought the world opinion would come to this. I guess the Palestinians had just done extremly bad irreversiable damage to their cause. Within 5 years, they came from looking like David under Goliath, to barbaric stupid savages. Great PR!
But they've done it somehow.
I'm not saying that Israel is perfect, but for the past 10 years 6 different politican leaders have geniunly tried to negotiate a lasting peace between the Palestinians only to be rebuked and confronted with more violence at every step.
The world has come to understand that during that time and till today that the Palestinians (leadership) has not been interested in negotiating a geniune peace settlement with Israel.
By electing Hamas they have torn through the vail of double talk the Palestinians have been maintaining throughout this time to show their true face to the world. And the world for once is reacting.
Partily resonpsible to prepetuating in its denial the death and destruction via the belief that there was a peace partner in the Palestinians, the West has come to understand that there is not one there and are finally understanding that their money has gone down an empty hole.
It is sad, as the whole world (including Israel) would have loved to "get over this" and resolved this issue in unity and happiness with the Palestinians. However, you can't negotiate a one-sided peace. Realizing this, Israel in regret and after overcoming bitter denial that the peace process can no longer suceed, is attempting a unilateral disengagment plan from the Palestinians, and a unilateral delceration of borders, not drawn upon a peace table, but a security table, to resolve this situation for Israelis into liveable and manigable terms until the Palestians mature enough to negotiate a fair and lasting peace. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I didn't. It was only a precautionary thing like "just incase you try to pull this card on me" which people have done in the past, and many people do, when you're critical of Israeli policy. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned it, but considering the how aften people eigther make this assumption, or blatantly accuse you of it, I thought I should make it clear beforehand. I guess it didn't come out right. |
Tell me about it. I've taken that bullet an awful lot of times (especially because of my criticisms of the placing of that wall - right Yoepus?;)). But if you start to assume that those whose opinions differ from your own will assume that you're a racist, then you're sinking to their level IMO.
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but it's pretty understandable why they'd resort to that, given the situation. It's pretty arrogant of us to sit here in the West with all sorts of comfort and luxuries, and judge other people actions which are a prduct of hving lived in some of the worst of circumstances (i.e. humiliating and brutal occupation). What the heck do you expect them to act like? |
Hmm. I do appreciate what you're saying here (that as a non-persecuted person I cannot understand these people and hence should not judge them). But taken to its logical conclusion that also means that I shouldn't sympathize with them, and thus the best course of action would be to sit back and let them do whatever they want without me telling them what I think is right and wrong. As far as I can see, that's exactly what withholding aid is.
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
But they do have the *right* to never have been in this situation in the first place. |
Agree. It's a terrible tragedy. Just as the Jews had the right never to be a people with no home for 2000 years. Just as the gypsies of Eastern and Southern Europe has the right not to be where they are, and so on. I do think that we should take Mister Opus' advice to heart, and say "where now?" rather than "who's to blame?". At least it seems more productive while there are still problems to be eliminated. |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
and say "where now?" rather than "who's to blame?". At least it seems more productive while there are still problems to be eliminated. |
why on earth would you think voices that repeat phrases like "brutal and humiliating occupation" or "it's understandable why they resort to vaporizing busses" or "they have the right to not be in this situation in the first place" like Shaolin's, could even conceptualize Israel's wish to live in peace? much less look forward to alternatives like disengagement.
i mean look! he thinks that "no Palestinian regime can threaten Israel" wtf?
how do even begin to argue a "where now" strategy with that? |
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| shaolin_Z |
I'm kinda busy these days (end of the semester) but I'll try to respond soon.
@ Opus: Like I said, it was a precautionary measure, what I said earlier, I'm certainly not trying to imply you're racist or anything. If it came across that way, I apologize.
@ trancaholic: Pretty much the same thing I said to Opus.
I'll try and get back to you guys as soon as I have some time on my hands (or if I'm being really lazy in the lab ;)) I've had a few ty week in a row and tons of homework/projects/tests (and that's not everything that's been making it ty), so if I'm a little flakey, don't take it personaly. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
why on earth would you think voices that repeat phrases like "brutal and humiliating occupation" or "it's understandable why they resort to vaporizing busses" or "they have the right to not be in this situation in the first place" like Shaolin's, could even conceptualize Israel's wish to live in peace? much less look forward to alternatives like disengagement. |
Cut the crap Q5. Stop trying to twist my words. Over the last few decades, I haven't seen it get any better for the Palestinians, and I've only seen continued expansion and persecution. And you're telling me that Israel wants peace?
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
i mean look! he thinks that "no Palestinian regime can threaten Israel" wtf? |
If you have a far superior military, economy, resources, aid, infrastructure, and unilateral support from the sole super power, I don't see how militants armed with rocket launchers, assault rifles, and pistols could possibly be a threat to you.
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
how do even begin to argue a "where now" strategy with that? |
"Where now?" I've repeated a million times you have to deal with the source of the problem, not ignore it. And that doesn't mean Jews, Mulisms, Christians, and everyone else can't co-exist in the region. Illegal expansion and occupation certainly isn't helping anyone reach that goal, and it never will. The Palestinans didn't happen to settle down in Palestine/Israel region, they were coerced and displaced, in a fairly agressive and brutal fasion. |
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| tranceNlife |
I dont know what is percentage of Israelies like Yeopus who are open to negotiations and willing to give up something in return for peace.
Because most of the people I talk to tell me 'There is no point in talking to Palestine (Hamas or no Hamas), they will always want more and more.
Here is one example conversation I had with Vlad who sported an Israelie flag at the time of posting:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...2&pagenumber=11
Read pages before and after too, if you have time. |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Cut the crap Q5. Stop trying to twist my words. Over the last few decades, I haven't seen it get any better for the Palestinians, and I've only seen continued expansion and persecution. |
And you're telling me that Israel wants peace? i used your words. i used your words to demonstrate to someone else why it would be futile to discuss a peacful future for anybody with you. when was the last time they expanded?
| quote: | | If you have a far superior military, economy, resources, aid, infrastructure, and unilateral support from the sole super power, I don't see how militants armed with rocket launchers, assault rifles, and pistols could possibly be a threat to you. |
countries just don't give up culturally sacred territory and build 30ft. concrete walls around themselves for the ambience it gives to the neighborhood.
| quote: | | "Where now?" I've repeated a million times you have to deal with the source of the problem, not ignore it. And that doesn't mean Jews, Mulisms, Christians, and everyone else can't co-exist in the region. Illegal expansion and occupation certainly isn't helping anyone reach that goal, and it never will. The Palestinans didn't happen to settle down in Palestine/Israel region, they were coerced and displaced, in a fairly agressive and brutal fasion. |
and what i'm saying is for the Israelis to STOP dealing with the source of the problem. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
And you're telling me that Israel wants peace? i used your words. i used your words to demonstrate to someone else why it would be futile to discuss a peacful future for anybody with you. when was the last time they expanded? |
No, it's futile discussing anything with you...
| quote: |
Israel: Expanding Settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories
Letter to President George W. Bush
December 27, 2005
Office of the President
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave. NW
Washington, DC 20500
Dear President Bush,
I am writing to you with respect to multiple Israeli announcements of its plans to continue expanding settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT). This directly contravenes international law and Israeli commitments under the Road Map.
You recently reiterated Israel’s obligations to stop expanding settlements when you said, on October 20, 2005, following your meeting with Palestinian President Abbas: “Israel should not undertake any activity that contravenes its road map obligations, or prejudices the final status negotiations with regard to Gaza, the West Bank, and Jerusalem. This means that Israel must remove unauthorized outposts and stop settlement expansion.” Israel has acted contrary to these obligations, escalating the building of settlements in 2005. According to the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics, in the first half of 2005, there was a 28% increase in settlement housing starts compared to the same period in 2004. Israel now proposes to further expand West Bank settlements in the coming year.
We urge you to use U.S. diplomatic and financial influence to stop this trend in 2006.
On December 26, the Ministry of Housing released tenders for the construction of 228 housing units in the West Bank settlements of Beitar Ilit and Efrat; on December 19, , the Ministry of Housing published tenders for constructing 137 new housing units in the West Bank settlements of Ariel and Karnei Shomron; and on December 14, Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz’s approved the construction of approximately 300 new homes in the West Bank settlements of Maale Adumim, Bracha and Nokdim. Maale Adumim is one of the largest and fastest growing settlements in the West Bank, with some 30,000 inhabitants. The settlement is located east of Jerusalem and adjacent to the much-publicized area of “E-1,” the last remaining site for potential Palestinian development around settlement-encircled East Jerusalem. The Israeli government also has made clear that, despite U.S. opposition, it plans to build 3,500 housing units in E-1 and to include Ma'ale Adumim and E-1 on the western side (the “Israeli side”) of the metal and concrete barrier that Israel is building, mostly inside the OPT (hereinafter, the “wall”). Such actions would effectively sever the West Bank in two by cutting the already limited Palestinian north-south access routes through the West Bank. In addition, a wall encircling E-1 and Ma’ale Adumim would make access to East Jerusalem, the center of Palestinian economic and religious life, virtually impossible from the rest of the West Bank, except through limited checkpoint crossings in the wall, most of which Israel has not yet funded or built.
Israel’s continuing settlement activity is a violation of international humanitarian law (IHL), United Nations Security Council resolutions, and Israel’s own commitments under the U.S.-sponsored Road Map of April 2003. The Israeli government’s policy of encouraging, financing, establishing, and expanding Jewish-only settlements in the OPT violates two main principles of IHL: the prohibition on the transfer of civilians from an occupying power's territory to the occupied territory, and the prohibition of creating permanent changes in the occupied territory that are not for the benefit of the occupied population. In particular, Article 49(6) of the Fourth Geneva Convention states that "[t]he Occupying Power shall not …transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." Under the road map, Israel agreed to freeze all settlement activity, including “natural growth,” and to dismantle all settlement outposts created since March 2001.
No one but Israel disputes the fact that its settlement policy violates IHL. Yet the international community, including the United States, has failed to hold Israel accountable to its obligations under the Fourth Geneva Convention to, at the very least, immediately cease current Israeli settlement activity. The wrongfulness of the settlement expansion is compounded by evidence stemming from the construction of the wall within the OPT that suggests an Israeli intention eventually to annex the territory in question. Israel claims that the wall is being built for security reasons, but the deep intrusion of the wall into West Bank territory, and the capture of major settlements on the ”Israeli side” of the wall, suggest otherwise. The International Court of Justice, in a view shared by many international legal commentators and every major human rights organization in the world, concluded in its June 2004 advisory opinion that Israel’s construction of the wall within the boundaries of the OPT contravenes IHL and is tantamount to an illegal annexation of the settlements on the Israeli side of the wall.
Peace Now has published a list of seven settlements where large-scale construction (hundreds of units) is occurring. All but one of them are located on the Israeli side of the wall. In a similar list of seventeen settlements where medium-scale construction (tens of units) is occurring, all but three are on the Israeli side of the wall. In addition, two Israeli human rights organizations, B’Tselem and Bimkom, recently published a report that documents the fact that 55 settlements, including 12 in East Jerusalem, housing approximately 75% of all settlers, would fall on the Israeli side of the wall. The report shows that Israeli officials established the wall’s route hundreds to thousands of meters east of the existing boundaries of these settlements to allow for maximum future expansion. The organizations conclude that “contrary to the picture portrayed by the state, the settlement-expansion plans played a substantial role in the planning of the Barrier's route."
The Israeli government has recently sought to justify its construction of the wall inside Palestinian territory, and beyond the Green Line, as based on its sovereign duty to protect Israeli citizens, notwithstanding their presence in settlements. But Israel can well protect these citizens by dismantling the settlements and bringing its settler citizens back within the legitimate borders of its state. Such a measure would satisfy Israel’s duty to protect its citizens without undermining its duty to respect and uphold international law and would end the severe humanitarian and economic harm inflicted on the Palestinian population by virtue of the wall’s construction.
Even the Israeli government has now stated that the wall is not being built just for security purposes but also to establish its territorial claims on OPT land. On December 1, news reports quoted Tzipi Livni, the Israeli Minister of Justice, as saying that the future borders of Israel will roughly follow the route of the wall. This statement by an Israeli public official was the first to explicitly link the route of the wall with Israel’s political, not security, aims.
We urge you to take immediate action to end U.S. support of Israel's unlawful policies. According to an investigative report by the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz, based on government ministry budgets, Israel spends about NIS 2.5 billion a year ($550 million) for the non-military aspects of settlement maintenance and expansion. Furthermore, the Knesset has projected that Israel will spend about $3.4 billion in total on construction of the wall, 80% of which is inside the occupied West Bank. (Israel has not made public a breakdown of the portions of the costs attributable to construction of the wall inside the West Bank, on the Green Line, or inside Israel). Recent experience with the Rafah border-crossing deal confirms that when the United States is determined to change problematic Israeli conduct, Israel will comply. To avoid U.S. financial complicity in policies that the U.S. Government opposes and that international law prohibits, we therefore call on you and other key government officials, first, to state in unequivocal terms that the United States will not tolerate any further settlement expansion and, second, to announce that the administration will deduct from U.S. financial aid to Israel - about $2.58 billion in fiscal year 2005 -- an amount equal to Israel's expenditures on the settlements and on the construction and maintenance of such portion of the wall that is inside the West Bank.
Yours sincerely,
Sarah Leah Whitson
Executive Director, Middle East North Africa Division
Human Rights Watch
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EDIT:Source: Human Rights Watch
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
countries just don't give up culturally sacred territory and build 30ft. concrete walls around themselves for the ambience it gives to the neighborhood. |
Yeah, apparently the Palestians have no historical roots related to the territory or cultural/religious ties to it. :rolleyes:
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
and what i'm saying is for the Israelis to STOP dealing with the source of the problem. |
When has Isreal ever done that? |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
No, it's futile discussing anything with you... |
No, you! like arguing with my 5 yr old neighbor kid.
believe me, once the fence is built, it would be hard to imagine any more incursions beyond the fence. does that make any sense to you? just asking.
| quote: | | Yeah, apparently the Palestians have no historical roots related to the territory or cultural/religious ties to it. :rolleyes: |
not saying they don't. my question to you remains. is Palestine a threat to Israel?
| quote: | | When has Isreal ever done that? |
i suspect now. i don't know when or even if they'll disengage. the wall though is a fairly good barometer don't you think? the Israeli elections earlier this month, combined with the Hamas taking over the reigns, all point in that direction. but your guess is as good as mine.
well...not as good:D |
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| trancaholic |
Apparently Palestinians have gotten some new friends. Or rather, some of their long claimed friends have started to put a little actual help behind their pledges of support. My cynical guess is that this is a one time show of support, given in the hope that the US and the EU will fall back into the role of anonymous donor, so that wealthy Arabs can go back to building palaces and armies. Anyway, at least it would seem to give Hamas a few months to show off their great leadership abilities.
| quote: | GAZA CITY: Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates have pledged $80m in aid to the Hamas-led Palestinian government, finance minister Omar Abdelrazek said yesterday.
“We have received pledges from the Arab world that will help us operate for several months,” the minister said on the website of Hamas. “In all, $20m from Saudi Arabia, $40m from Kuwait and $20m from the UAE are to be transferred,” he said. “We will not collapse despite the war being waged against us by the racist Zionists, by the United States and the European Union,” he said.
Abdelrazek said earlier that the government still faced a $120m monthly budget shortfall, despite having received $35m from Algeria. European Union governments yesterday endorsed the suspension of direct aid to the Palestinian Authority, the bloc’s Austrian presidency said. |
From The Peninsula On-line |
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