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No more help to Palestine
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| trancaholic |
| First it was the Canadians, and next the EU and then the US have cut aid to the PA. Great news IMO. If Palestinians want to live in a hateful middleage environment then go ahead. Just don't expect the west to fund it. Maybe Saudi-Arabia wants to chip in instead. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| Yeah, that would be great and would tremendously help the Israel/Palestine crisis. :rolleyes: |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Yeah, that would be great and would tremendously help the Israel/Palestine crisis. :rolleyes: |
What do you expect? Are we allowed to disagree nowadays? And if so, what kind of response should the EU/US provide for? And more importantly: What kind of elected extremist "regime" would - in your opinion - warrant a clear cut of help from the EU/US? Personally I'm having troubles imagining a more insane party in power, but clearly I'm off my bonkers these days (although nobody seems to actually *engage* my arguments and statistics). |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
What do you expect? Are we allowed to disagree nowadays? And if so, what kind of response should the EU/US provide for? And more importantly: What kind of elected extremist "regime" would - in your opinion - warrant a clear cut of help from the EU/US? Personally I'm having troubles imagining a more insane party in power, but clearly I'm off my bonkers these days (although nobody seems to actually *engage* my arguments and statistics). |
Yeah, that may make sense in some limited context, but you (generic you here) have to look at the entire picture. How is this going to help the situation at all?
EDIT: Infact, it's only likely to do the opposite. |
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Yeah, that may make sense in some limited context, but you (generic you here) have to look at the entire picture. How is this going to help the situation at all?
EDIT: Infact, it's only likely to do the opposite. |
I disagree, but I'm also not up on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict as much as others here (and I avoid those threads like the plague for obvious reasons). But it seems to me that the absolute worst organization that could be imagined on the international front was voted in Palestine, and if they honestly want some sort of recognition as a legitimate government, or even if they want themselves recognized and respected in any way as a legitimate group, they have to learn how to play ball.
And the first and foremost step is to recognize that Israel is funded, recognized, and supported by almost all Western countries. Israel is going nowhere. Yet Hamas continues down it's dip rationale and refuses to recognize the troubles they are setting on the international front.
Perhaps Hamas doesn't give a about the international front. Perhaps they didn't see this coming. I concede that. They were seemingly voted in for their domestic issues and charity to the Palestinian people. That's all well and good, but now they're on the map, and now they have to learn to play ball with other countries.
And yet they continue in ignorance and denial. Well all I have to say is welcome to reality. Hamas inherited a real ing mess whether they like it or not. They have to realize that in order to do what's best for their people as a governing body, they have to learn how to be diplomatic with other countries, INCLUDING Israel. Their continual refusal to do so brings consequences that are fully supported by the international community.
They need to learn the crash course on how to be a governing body on the international front and quick, or they'll continue to be gutted for their ignorance. Pretty simple. |
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| tranceNlife |
I say turn the whole Palestine into one big concentration camp.
Stop all medical help, starve them to death. Cut all aid.
Crisis solved. |
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| shaolin_Z |
Your argument is horrible and would only make sense if we assume a double standard. I'll show you why.
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
I disagree, but I'm also not up on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict as much as others here (and I avoid those threads like the plague for obvious reasons). But it seems to me that the absolute worst organization that could be imagined on the international front was voted in Palestine, and if they honestly want some sort of recognition as a legitimate government, or even if they want themselves recognized and respected in any way as a legitimate group, they have to learn how to play ball. |
Now we have to look at how the state of Israel was created in the first place. The British mandate led to the partition of Palestine in 1947 and gave Israel to the zionists (the rationale being to solve the conflict between European immigrant jews and the Arabs). Now if you're going to claim that the original reason for the tension between the European immigrant jews and Arabs was due to anti-semitism, that's ludicrous at best, considreing that Jews, Christains, and Muslims had been living in peace there before that.
Now there is no legitimacy of Britain giving Israel to the zionist in the first place. No one originally backed Israel, including the US, until they realized the advantages they would get in doing so.
Seconed point, it's not like Israel hasn't engaged in countless acts of aggression and collective punishment against the Palestinians, violated countless UN resolution and shown no heed for international law whatsoever from it's inception till this day.
So your argument about "legitimacy" holds no water to begin with. What "legitimacy" did Britain and other memeber of the international community have to give Israel to zionist in the first place? And keeping in mind Israel constant military aggression and illegal expansion of bourdries, what makes them any more "legitimate" than Hamas?
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
And the first and foremost step is to recognize that Israel is funded, recognized, and supported by almost all Western countries. Israel is going nowhere. Yet Hamas continues down it's dip rationale and refuses to recognize the troubles they are setting on the international front. |
The Palestinians have gotton nothing but screwed since the creation of the state of Isreal. Israel has gradualy ILLEGALY expanding it's boundries and used brutal coercive tactics, not just on "terrorist" but also civilians. Their treatment is fairly indiscriminate. The Palestininas live under worse conditions than ever before and I see no reason why they should be sympathetic towards their opressors, first with the British colonizing much of the Middle East in the first place, then Zionist jews (who were eventually backed by the US with billions of dollars of aid, militray equipment, pretty much unilateral political support, etc.)
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Perhaps Hamas doesn't give a about the international front. |
Yeah, neigther does Isreal.
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Perhaps they didn't see this coming. I concede that. They were seemingly voted in for their domestic issues and charity to the Palestinian people. That's all well and good, but now they're on the map, and now they have to learn to play ball with other countries.
And yet they continue in ignorance and denial. Well all I have to say is welcome to reality. Hamas inherited a real ing mess whether they like it or not. They have to realize that in order to do what's best for their people as a governing body, they have to learn how to be diplomatic with other countries, INCLUDING Israel. Their continual refusal to do so brings consequences that are fully supported by the international community.
They need to learn the crash course on how to be a governing body on the international front and quick, or they'll continue to be gutted for their ignorance. Pretty simple. |
And is this supposed to be a change in attitude for them by the West (not all of it, only the contries relevant to with some level of involvement in the conflict) and Israel?
Anyways, before you go making any assumptions, let me make it clear that eventhough I think the creation of the state of Israel, by taking it away from it's indiginous inhabitant and giving it to foreign immigrants, who wanted it exclusively for themselves, is completely wrong, I still don't have a problem with Jews settling down in the region. All I want is for them and the Palestinians to get along. It's good for everyone.
The only way to solve a problem is to deal with the root cause of it, and the root cause of it isn't anti-semitism, it the fact that people who have for centuries been living in the same place, are all of a sudden expected to move out or be persecuted. Any anti-semitism that existed after that, well, it's pretty hard to blame them for that (not that it's a good thing by any means).
And I won't even get into the initial instigation to see the zionist agenda materialize in the first place, since you're likely to simply going to ignore it as being "anti-semetic" progonda. If this is the case, it should tell you a little something about how imparitial/objective/biased you are about this issue. Note, that when I'm critical of Isreal, I always make a disctinction between being a zionist and being a jew. I have nothing against Jews.
EDIT: Something I forgot to add, even assuming that the creation of Israel is legitimate, it's track record of constant violation of UN resolutions and disregard for international law doesn't exactly make her "legitimate" eigther. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| Anyways, so the I was trying to make relevant to the original post was that collective punishment, yet again, isn't going to make anyone change their minds, it will only fan the flames. |
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| trancaholic |
@shaolin: I'm somewhat surprised that you could read a charge of anti-semitism from Mister Opus' post. As far as I can see, it deals only with the need for Hamas to realize how the world looks like today, and that one of the traits of the modern world, is that you have to use diplomacy rather than terror, if you want support from the west.
Assuming for the moment that you're right in stating that the state of Israel is as morally and legally problematic as Hamas, I ask you why that entails that withholding aid requires a double standard? The EU does not fund Israel.
Furthermore, you see this as a punishment. To say so you must think that Palestinians somehow has a *right* to this money. As I see it, the money belong to the west, and it can spend it as it see fit. A punishment, on the other hand, would be something like sanctions.
Anyway, you never answered my direct question: What kind of regime would, in your opinion, warrant the cutting of aid? |
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| skot_e |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Hamas inherited a real ing mess whether they like it or not. They have to realize that in order to do what's best for their people as a governing body, they have to learn how to be diplomatic with other countries, INCLUDING Israel. |
i've not been following this of late, but I'm yet to see anyone from Hamas entertain this thought. Have I missed something?
I say cut all aid and see Hamas self detonate when the pressure comes. Their funding will dry up at some point, and people will become disillusioned that they have not had the great joy they thought was comming, then let the political process and the Palestinians new democratic thoughts bring about it's own change.
The most important culture they need to change is one of hatred. They need prosperity, but they won't get that when Hamas falls appart. |
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| skot_e |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Hamas inherited a real ing mess whether they like it or not. They have to realize that in order to do what's best for their people as a governing body, they have to learn how to be diplomatic with other countries, INCLUDING Israel. |
i've not been following this of late, but I'm yet to see anyone from Hamas entertain this thought. Have I missed something?
I say cut all aid and see Hamas self detonate when the pressure comes. Their funding will dry up at some point, and people will become disillusioned that they have not had the great joy they thought was comming, then let the political process and the Palestinians new democratic thoughts bring about it's own change.
The most important culture they need to change is one of hatred. They need prosperity, but they won't get that when Hamas falls appart. |
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