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No more help to Palestine (pg. 3)
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| shaolin_Z |
| I think it was eighter BCC, NYTimes or Yahoo News where I read that Russian would be giving Aid too. |
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| juzfugen |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Your argument is horrible and would only make sense if we assume a double standard. I'll show you why.
Now we have to look at how the state of Israel was created in the first place. The British mandate led to the partition of Palestine in 1947 and gave Israel to the zionists (the rationale being to solve the conflict between European immigrant jews and the Arabs). Now if you're going to claim that the original reason for the tension between the European immigrant jews and Arabs was due to anti-semitism, that's ludicrous at best, considreing that Jews, Christains, and Muslims had been living in peace there before that.
Now there is no legitimacy of Britain giving Israel to the zionist in the first place. No one originally backed Israel, including the US, until they realized the advantages they would get in doing so.
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Let me ask you this, what legitimacy is there in the Roman Empire taking that lands of Judea from the Israelites and renaming it SyriaPalestine after the Israelites enemy the Phillisintes? You do know there was a kigdom of Israel for 600 years before the name Palestine was even uttered.
The creation of Israel in 1947 had the blessing and support of the UN back in 1947, so if Israel's creation is not legitimate does that mean nothing the UN has done is legitimate?
Where do you draw the line?
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
If you have a far superior military, economy, resources, aid, infrastructure, and unilateral support from the sole super power, I don't see how militants armed with rocket launchers, assault rifles, and pistols could possibly be a threat to you.
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Tell that to the troops in Iraq.... |
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| WM2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by juzfugen
Let me ask you this, what legitimacy is there in the Roman Empire taking that lands of Judea from the Israelites and renaming it SyriaPalestine after the Israelites enemy the Phillisintes? You do know there was a kigdom of Israel for 600 years before the name Palestine was even uttered. |
This is what I keep asking people too. Why is helping out a people that has been discriminated against, enslaved, unwanted, and nearly wiped out by giving them back their homeland illegal?
If the same is true, should be allowed to question the legality of an attempt of any Indian tribe at regaining it's sovereignty and land because my ancestors killed, raped, and stole the land that I now occupy that was taken from them? I'm really asking that cause that's basically what an argument about the right of the Jews to have their own state there boils down to.
Now, I'm in no way justifying the actions of the Israelis when it concerns what they've done since being given back the land. I have a lot more to say on the subject, but no time. I'll finish later. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by juzfugen
Let me ask you this, what legitimacy is there in the Roman Empire taking that lands of Judea from the Israelites and renaming it SyriaPalestine after the Israelites enemy the Phillisintes? You do know there was a kigdom of Israel for 600 years before the name Palestine was even uttered. |
I haven't really researched the details of this account but I'll take it on face value and respond:
The Romans had no legitimacy to kick out the Jews in the first place. But I don't see what ancient history has to do with the current conflict. Europeans jews were higly westernized and had little in common with some of their remaining ancestors in the region. And there was virtutally no support for zionism amongst most Jews in Europe before the holocuast (another incredibly ed up tragedy that never should have happened). It had been centuries since they hadn't been living in Palestine/Isreal region. And it's not like the Jews were the sole inhabitant of it to begin with.
The problem isn't Jews immigrating to the region. The problem is the forced displacement of the indigenous people and collective punishment. And that's where zionism comes in. It seeks to creative an exclusively Jewish state in an already inhabited land, where a gentile is essentialy a second class citizen. In order to achieve this goal, the Palestians have been brutalized and dehumanized for a few decades now. Israel has consistenly illegaly expanded it's boundries. The very creation of the state and it's legitimacy is questionable at the least to being with. It has constantly violated international law and UN resolutions.
| quote: | Originally posted by juzfugen
The creation of Israel in 1947 had the blessing and support of the UN back in 1947, so if Israel's creation is not legitimate does that mean nothing the UN has done is legitimate?
Where do you draw the line? |
Read above. The problem with that arguemnt is that Jews had already been away for AGES and in all practicality had little to nothing to do with that area. By that logic, we should all go back and settle in Africa, or wherever the human race is believed to have spread from. The Palestinians have never left the region on the other hand and are being removed by incredibly aggresive and brutal methods, half of which you don't even heard in Western media (some of those details you'll find in human rights reports and such), which isn't a surprise, considering that many of the brave journalist who go there to uncover the truth never make it back.
| quote: | Originally posted by juzfugen
Tell that to the troops in Iraq.... |
They have no business being there in the first place. An agressor shouldn't (EDIT: should -> shouldn't) be surprised when he goes to a foreign land and faces opposition and resistance. |
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| Yoepus |
Well news like this certainly doesn't help the Palestinian cause...
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source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060417..._palestinians_2
Palestinians: Tel Aviv Bombing Justified
By LAURIE COPANS, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 2 minutes ago
TEL AVIV, Israel - A Palestinian suicide bomber struck a packed fast-food restaurant during Passover on Monday, killing nine other people and wounding dozens in the deadliest attack in more than a year.
In a sharp departure from the previous Palestinian government's condemnations of bombings, the Hamas-led administration said the attack resulted from
Israel's "brutal aggression." The bloodshed and the hard-line stance could set the stage for harsh Israeli reprisals and endanger Palestinian efforts to secure desperately needed international aid.
Israel said it held Hamas responsible for the attack — even though another group claimed responsibility — and Israel's security chiefs were meeting later Monday to discuss what action to take. Security officials said a ground operation in Gaza was not being considered.
The attack occurred just two hours before Israel's newly elected parliament was sworn into office, and Prime Minister-designate Ehud Olmert said Israel would react to the bombing with appropriate means.
The White House condemned the attack and warned of grave consequences for the new Palestinian government.
"It is a despicable act of terror for which there is no excuse or justification," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said. "Defense or sponsorship of terrorist acts by officials of the Palestinian Cabinet will have the gravest effects on relations between the
Palestinian Authority and all states seeking peace in the Middle East."
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European Union, which has cut off aid to the Hamas-led government, also denounced the bombing and called for restraint by both sides.
Islamic Jihad, which has close ties to Israel's arch enemy,
Iran, claimed responsibility for the attack, the first in Israel since the Hamas Cabinet took office 2 1/2 weeks ago.
The blast came amid a sharp increase in fighting between Israel and the Palestinians across the Gaza border. Militants have fired barrages of homemade rockets at Israel, and Israel has responded with artillery fire. A 17-year-old Palestinian in the northern Gaza town of Beit Lahiya was killed Monday in the shelling, Palestinian officials said.
The suicide bombing took place about 1:40 p.m. when the bomber, carrying a bag stuffed with 10 pounds of explosives, approached "The Mayor's Falafel" restaurant in a busy neighborhood near Tel Aviv's central bus station. The restaurant, which had been the target of a bombing in January, was packed with Israelis on vacation during the weeklong Passover holiday.
A guard outside was checking the bomber's bag when the device exploded, police and witnesses said.
"Suddenly there was a boom. The whole restaurant flew in the air," said Azi Otmazgo, 35, who was wounded on his hands, foot and head.
The bomb, laced with nails and other projectiles, shattered car windshields, smashed windows of nearby buildings and blew away the restaurant's sign. Glass shards and blood splattered the ground. Police said the guard was torn in half by the blast.
The explosion killed a woman standing near her husband and children, who were slightly wounded, said Israel Yaakov, another witness.
"The father was traumatized. He went into shock. He ran to the children to gather them up, and the children were screaming, 'Mom! Mom!' and she wasn't answering, she was dead already," he said.
The wounded were treated on sidewalks. One man was lying on his side, his shirt pushed up and his back covered by bandages. A bleeding woman was wheeled away on a stretcher.
"Everything was a mess. Everything was blood. I saw half a body — I don't know if it was the terrorist or the guard," said a witness who gave his name as Bentzi.
Police said nine civilians and the bomber were killed and dozens of others were wounded.
The attack was the deadliest since a double suicide bombing on two buses in the southern city of Beersheba killed 16 people on Aug. 31, 2004. It was the second major Passover bombing in four years. An 2002 attack at a hotel in the coastal town of Netanya killed 29 people and triggered a major Israeli military offensive.
Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Gideon Meir said the government held Hamas responsible for the attack because it is "giving support to all the other terrorist organizations."
"From our point of view it doesn't matter if it comes from Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad or Hamas. They all come out of the same school of terrorism led by Hamas," Meir said.
Hamas, responsible for dozens of suicide bombings in recent years, has largely observed a 16-month truce with Israel. Yet in a sharp departure from previous government's immediate condemnations of such attacks, Hamas leaders defended the bombing.
"We think that this operation ... is a direct result of the policy of the occupation and the brutal aggression and siege committed against our people," said Khaled Abu Helal, spokesman for the Hamas-led Interior Ministry.
The moderate Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas of the rival
Fatah party, condemned the bombing, and said he had ordered Palestinian security forces to prevent future attacks.
Abbas is currently in a power struggle with Hamas, and it remains unclear who is ultimately in charge of the Palestinians' security forces.
"These kinds of attacks harm the Palestinian interest, and we as an authority and government must move to stop it," Abbas said. "We will not stop pursuing anyone who carries out such attacks."
Israeli President Moshe Katsav appealed to the Palestinians to reject violence.
"I call on the Palestinians not to show weakness of spirit in the struggle for peace. We want to believe that the political path of the Hamas government is not the path of the Palestinians," he said.
Islamic Jihad identified Monday's bomber as Samer Hammad, 21, from a village outside the
West Bank town of Jenin.
In a video released by the group, Hammad said the bombing was dedicated to the thousands of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. "There are many other bombers on the way," he said.
Islamic Jihad was behind eight of the nine suicide bombings carried out since a Feb. 8, 2005, truce declaration.
The group's exiled leader, Ramadan Shallah, said Sunday that its militants were making "nonstop efforts" to infiltrate suicide bombers into Israel.
"The nonstop crackdown against our resistance might limit this effort, but it's not going to stop it," he said in a statement posted on the group's Web site. Shallah made his comments at an anti-Israel conference in Iran.
The attack — and the Hamas refusal to condemn it — complicated efforts to raise money for the bankrupt Palestinian treasury. The Hamas government is two weeks behind on paying March salaries for the government's 140,000 workers.
The U.S. and European Union cut off aid to the government because Hamas refused their demands to renounce violence and recognize Israel's right to exist. Israel also stopped transferring tens of millions of tax dollars it collects on the Palestinians' behalf every month.
Hamas says it will turn to Muslim countries to make up its budget shortfall. Iran and Qatar have each pledged $50 million. |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
They have no business being there in the first place. An agressor should be surprised when he goes to a foreign land and faces opposition and resistance. |
way to dodge a subject you have no business of defending. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Read above. The problem with that arguemnt is that Jews had already been away for AGES and in all practicality had little to nothing to do with that area. By that logic, we should all go back and settle in Africa, or wherever the human race is believed to have spread from. The Palestinians have never left the region on the other hand and are being removed by incredibly aggresive and brutal methods, half of which you don't even heard in Western media (some of those details you'll find in human rights reports and such), which isn't a surprise, considering that many of the brave journalist who go there to uncover the truth never make it back.
They have no business being there in the first place. An agressor should be surprised when he goes to a foreign land and faces opposition and resistance. |
Shaolin_Z, the reality of this argument is it undermines every notion of law, sovereignty, and title when it comes to land titlements in the western world and international politics.
Yes, you can argue the point you are making (as you do), but it would be in the same vien as arguing you don't have to pay rent because your landlord is not legally entitled to the land because it belonged to Indian Tribe Z which was aggressively captured by White Man X, who was bankrupt by Chinaman Y, how sold the property to Texan W who owns it and lease it to you.
All I can say is, good luck not paying rent.
There is no point in arguing whether the creation of Israel was just or unjust, in the same vien there is no point in arguing whether the creation of the USA was just or unjust. The reality is that Israel exist and is a soverign entity, in the same vien that the US exist and is its own independent and soverign entity from the UK and the native americans. There is no point arguing the US's orgins when debating a new trade bill being passed by Congress as there is no point in arguing Israel's (or the Palestinian's orgins for that matter) when disucssing a peace agreement.
That is what this whole issue is about, not about whether happened in the past was right or wrong (which you are arguing) but why the current Palestinian government (Hamas) can not come to terms with the reality of now, of today. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Shaolin_Z, the reality of this argument is it undermines every notion of law, sovereignty, and title when it comes to land titlements in the western world and international politics.
Yes, you can argue the point you are making (as you do), but it would be in the same vien as arguing you don't have to pay rent because your landlord is not legally entitled to the land because it belonged to Indian Tribe Z which was aggressively captured by White Man X, who was bankrupt by Chinaman Y, how sold the property to Texan W who owns it and lease it to you.
All I can say is, good luck not paying rent.
There is no point in arguing whether the creation of Israel was just or unjust, in the same vien there is no point in arguing whether the creation of the USA was just or unjust. The reality is that Israel exist and is a soverign entity, in the same vien that the US exist and is its own independent and soverign entity from the UK and the native americans. There is no point arguing the US's orgins when debating a new trade bill being passed by Congress as there is no point in arguing Israel's (or the Palestinian's orgins for that matter) when disucssing a peace agreement.
That is what this whole issue is about, not about whether happened in the past was right or wrong (which you are arguing) but why the current Palestinian government (Hamas) can not come to terms with the reality of now, of today. |
First of all, glad to have back Yoepus. :) (no, I'm not being sarcastic or anything :p).
Second, the only problem with the US native American analogy is that there's hardly any of them left anymore, so it would be kind of hard for them to "return." Also, that was too long ago to be reversed. This conflict isn't and modern history is still relevant, in which lies the root cause of the problem. This is going on rightnow, it is still possible to do something about it. |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Second, the only problem with the US native American analogy is that there's hardly any of them left anymore, so it would be kind of hard for them to "return." Also, that was too long ago to be reversed. This conflict isn't and modern history is still relevant, in which lies the root cause of the problem. This is going on rightnow, it is still possible to do something about it. |
thats why it's called an analogy.
speaking of native american analogies, this one would be more appropriate. which is not to say Yeopus' isn't valid.
http://www.nativehawaiians.com/ |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
First of all, glad to have back Yoepus. :) (no, I'm not being sarcastic or anything :p).
Second, the only problem with the US native American analogy is that there's hardly any of them left anymore, so it would be kind of hard for them to "return." Also, that was too long ago to be reversed. This conflict isn't and modern history is still relevant, in which lies the root cause of the problem. This is going on rightnow, it is still possible to do something about it. |
If you follow the Canadian natives, the government hands out EVERYTHING to them...(well so it seems) and this is still going on well after Canada became a country, so as far as using an Amercian (by American I mean, "North American") analogy, that's not necessarily true.
However, unless the Arab nation has a viable solution for the world as to where all the displaced Jews are going to go, I would say the solution is already in place and has already existed too long to try and, "Undo".
They probably should have taken the correct political action way before now.
They need to get over it and learn to live with each other since neither are going anywhere. :) |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
If you follow the Canadian natives, the government hands out EVERYTHING to them...(well so it seems) and this is still going on well after Canada became a country, so as far as using an Amercian (by American I mean, "North American") analogy, that's not necessarily true.
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That has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making. The only point you're making is that the few remaining natives get compensation now after years of being slaughtered and driven away.
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
However, unless the Arab nation has a viable solution for the world as to where all the displaced Jews are going to go, I would say the solution is already in place and has already existed too long to try and, "Undo".
They probably should have taken the correct political action way before now.
They need to get over it and learn to live with each other since neither are going anywhere. :) |
Yeah, the only problem with that is that the Arabs had nothing to do with the displacement of the Jews and are in no way resposible for relocating them, and certainly don't need to be burdened by it. |
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| juzfugen |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z I haven't really
researched the details of this account but I'll take it on face value
and respond
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Why are you even trying to debate on this subject then? go do your homework
You have a very skewed perception of what "Zionism" is, first off the jews wanted to move back to their homeland and establish a jewish nation way before 1947, the problem was they were in no capacity to attempt, beg, borrow or steal to do so. They were an unwanted people, refugees couldnt leave Nazi occupied areas because no one would take them, so they were sent back to Germany and ultimately concentration camps. They were scattered throughout Europe and Asia including the middle east. Anti-Zionism has itself become "politically correct" among so-called intellectuals. They have one standard for Israel: an impossibly high one. Meanwhile, they set a much lower standard for every other country, even for nations in which tyranny, torture, honor killings, genocide, and every other human rights abuse go unchallenged ( Saudia Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Iran, Turkey). Islam is the largest practitioner of both gender and religious apartheid in the world: It persecutes all non-Muslims. Jews cannot apply for citizenship in Jordan, for example, and yet no Western group has called for divestment campaigns there. Meanwhile, the Arab leadership continues to terrorize the last Jewish enclave in the Middle East.
Zionism is not a bad thing, Islamic law also known as Sharia.Israelis dont arrest Arabs who pray to Allah or practice Islam unlike most Islamic states would do. Did you know if you openly practice judiesm or christianity in Saudi Arabia, Afghanastan or Iran you will be arrested and could possibly be put to death. Israel doesnt treat palastenians as second class citizens, look towards their muslims neighbors to see that being done.
Im not going to sit here and say everything the Israelis do to the Palastenians is kosher but alot of it they bring onto themselves.
My advice to them would be to stop strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up civilians, maybe then the world would have ALOT more empathy towards their cause. |
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