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Paul Van Dyk Agrees With Gareth Emery that 95% of Trance is bollocks (pg. 10)
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| Salegon |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mr.Mystery
I don't really understand why people keep wanting the '99 sound back anyway - back then there was as much crap tracks as there is now. It's just that nobody seems to remember those... |
+1
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Seriously, why care about what Pvd's or other "great djs'" opinion on trance is...
I cannot follow any need of discussing. There is no problem at all imho. |
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| thoughtlessjex |
| quote: | When I started DJ'ing in 2001, I was definitely chastised for being a "trance DJ" (even though prog house was also a big part of my sound). I didn't really care because I liked a lot of what was coming out then and what was being released until about 2003 when I noticed a trend in the music that was a bit disturbing.
There was a good bit of incredible music coming out during this time, but I was becoming very aware of the fact that the epic breakdowns were killing the dancefloor, especially ones that were 2:00 or longer and/or dropped to almost dead silence. While a big name DJ at a big club would get a HUGE reaction out of this (hands up in the air and screaming going on), smaller DJ's might not. Those small time DJ's are the ones that by and large support the industry, and if they're experiencing anything like myself and many others did, they're not going to support the vinyl releases and choose to go to other dancefloor friendly material such as prog house or tech house which tend to be the most logical alternative).
There is still some brilliant music being produced, don't get me wrong, but dancefloor friendly material is what seems to lacking (this aspect may well make 99% of all trance absolute garbage). Thinking back to about the time I essentially quit as primarily a trance DJ, there were a TON of amazing tracks that were GREAT to listen to (especially in the car!) but I would NEVER want to spin at a club because I know that they wouldn't work on the floor. The strings and/or pad sounds tend to make people SLEEPY, no matter what the beat may be doing (ie putting people into a "trance" in a bad way!). Throw on top of that 30 seconds of silence and another minute of a half of build up/breakdown and people tend to lose interest on the floor (probably moreso an American problem since we tend to have such a short attention span).
If this is something that other DJ's across the country (or world) are experiencing (and I know for a fact that it's not just me), then the potential customer base is GOING to be shrinking, quite possibly rapidly until a change in the genre occurs (read: undancable fluffy needs to go away). |
And the truth comes out. Big name DJs are famous because they are famous.
| quote: | Originally posted by Abhay
BTW.
where the is the source for this?
link please. |
Do you... read? |
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| Majutsu |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJMaytag
There is still some brilliant music being produced, don't get me wrong, but dancefloor friendly material is what seems to lacking (this aspect may well make 99% of all trance absolute garbage). Thinking back to about the time I essentially quit as primarily a trance DJ, there were a TON of amazing tracks that were GREAT to listen to (especially in the car!) but I would NEVER want to spin at a club because I know that they wouldn't work on the floor. The strings and/or pad sounds tend to make people SLEEPY, no matter what the beat may be doing (ie putting people into a "trance" in a bad way!). Throw on top of that 30 seconds of silence and another minute of a half of build up/breakdown and people tend to lose interest on the floor (probably moreso an American problem since we tend to have such a short attention span).
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man, you are just dropping some ing knowledge lately |
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| DJMaytag |
| quote: | Originally posted by Majutsu
man, you are just dropping some ing knowledge lately |
o rly? :D
FWIW, it's a problem with some progressive tunes too, so it's not solely a trance problem. hell, long deep dark breakdowns in progressive are MUCH worse than trance breakdowns.
I know I'm not the only small time DJ taking a long hard look at what works on the floor. I've also seen it as a buyer for a record store for 2+ years, noticing some great tracks sit on the shelf because of what I've been talking about. |
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| isoterra |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJMaytag
When I started DJ'ing in 2001, I was definitely chastised for being a "trance DJ" (even though prog house was also a big part of my sound). I didn't really care because I liked a lot of what was coming out then and what was being released until about 2003 when I noticed a trend in the music that was a bit disturbing.
There was a good bit of incredible music coming out during this time, but I was becoming very aware of the fact that the epic breakdowns were killing the dancefloor, especially ones that were 2:00 or longer and/or dropped to almost dead silence. While a big name DJ at a big club would get a HUGE reaction out of this (hands up in the air and screaming going on), smaller DJ's might not. Those small time DJ's are the ones that by and large support the industry, and if they're experiencing anything like myself and many others did, they're not going to support the vinyl releases and choose to go to other dancefloor friendly material such as prog house or tech house which tend to be the most logical alternative).
There is still some brilliant music being produced, don't get me wrong, but dancefloor friendly material is what seems to lacking (this aspect may well make 99% of all trance absolute garbage). Thinking back to about the time I essentially quit as primarily a trance DJ, there were a TON of amazing tracks that were GREAT to listen to (especially in the car!) but I would NEVER want to spin at a club because I know that they wouldn't work on the floor. The strings and/or pad sounds tend to make people SLEEPY, no matter what the beat may be doing (ie putting people into a "trance" in a bad way!). Throw on top of that 30 seconds of silence and another minute of a half of build up/breakdown and people tend to lose interest on the floor (probably moreso an American problem since we tend to have such a short attention span).
If this is something that other DJ's across the country (or world) are experiencing (and I know for a fact that it's not just me), then the potential customer base is GOING to be shrinking, quite possibly rapidly until a change in the genre occurs (read: undancable fluffy needs to go away). |
good post. i think you're correct about it being more of an american issue; since trance with breakdowns has been relatively huge in europe/the UK pretty much since it started. i guess we like to rest our feet every now & again? or perhaps we like the buzz of anticipation waiting for the climax section to kick off? maybe we get bored with the monotony of constant beats & like the flow to be broken every now & again? maybe the producers have safety in mind, & don't want the e-users to get heatstroke from dancing non-stop? :p
whatever the reason nonetheless, it really can't be as much of a problem as you make out, since long undanceable breakdowns have been around for over 10 years and have still managed to cut it in pretty much every trance/hard trance club i've been to in the last 3 years. and yes, that includes the small-time DJs as well as the bignames. a track i've recently had released even has a 3:20 breakdown (ok i'll admit that is a little over the top... i wasn't really making it with dancefloors in mind), yet still managed to keep the dancefloor when i heard it played out at peaktime once.
one part i agree with you on strangely enough is that "undanceable fluffy needs to go away"... even though i love my epic pad-fuelled beatless breakdowns & buildups, when they get followed up by gentle beats & fluffy basslines it pisses me off; i have no desire to dance & feel like the wait was for nothing. however if like in, say, mark sherry's stuff (to use a recent example you'll be familiar with), the tracks invariably have an awesome kickoff with a tough energetic kick/bass, and make the anticipation of the breakdown worthwhile (or atleast, you'd get that impression upon seeing the crowd reaction!).
saying that however... on a semi-related note, last time i was out i heard a classic piece of uplifting melodic trance; parker & clind - generator. it's energetic & fuelled by supersaws & pads, but there is no breakdown at all... it just constantly builds & builds; i was dancing crazily by the end and had to sit down after. would be kinda nice to have a few more tracks like that i guess ;) |
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| isoterra |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJMaytag
o rly? :D
FWIW, it's a problem with some progressive tunes too, so it's not solely a trance problem. hell, long deep dark breakdowns in progressive are MUCH worse than trance breakdowns. |
yeah i think that backs up my point about the anticipation in trance breakdowns being worthwhile, since the tracks normally have more energy & power when they kick back in, whereas most prog tunes seem to carry on where they left off |
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| DJMaytag |
| quote: | Originally posted by isoterra
good post. i think you're correct about it being more of an american issue; since trance with breakdowns has been relatively huge in europe/the UK pretty much since it started. i guess we like to rest our feet every now & again? or perhaps we like the buzz of anticipation waiting for the climax section to kick off? maybe we get bored with the monotony of constant beats & like the flow to be broken every now & again? maybe the producers have safety in mind, & don't want the e-users to get heatstroke from dancing non-stop? :p |
I was pretty much of the same opinion when I was primarily a trance DJ years ago, that's it's nice to have something to give ya a quick breather every now and then.
I'd love to see a trance producer step up to the plate and have the bollocks to produce a track that lacks any significant breakdown (16 bars or less). If enough did so, we could have a more interesting situation where a DJ could play say, 3 dancable tracks and then a solid track with a great breakdown. I don't think it's too tough for a dancer to get movin' for like 20 minutes and then have that killer breakdown, and I think the concept of the breakdown would be MUCH more effective if it didn't happen in EVERY SINGLE F@CK!NG TRACK!!! Listening to my collection of CD's from 1991-1996 leads me to belive (along with local DJ mix tape's of that era) that this was more of the scenario in the early 90's.
Some examples:
X-Cabs - Neuro [X-Cabs Remix]
Since it came out in 1996/1997, it may not be as well known, but IMHO this has got to be in the top 10 of all time as far as epic trance goes. There are two 16 bar breakdowns (roughly 30 seconds a piece) and one 8 bar break (which is more equivalent to a "bridge" in this track). The second breakdown has a WICKED buildup with the 303 tweaking away and that synth filter opening up to a nasty stab sound.
Cygnus X - Turn Around
HOLY F@CK CHOONAGE! 10 minutes of energy that is constantly building, weaving in and out sounds, building to a big peak without the beat stopping for longer than EIGHT bars! (those "pauses" are very effective and happen about 4 or 5 times). The timbral modulation going on also greatly enhances the interest in this track.
Cygnus X - Orange Theme [Album remix, from Hypermetrical]
Much of the same as above, but with a couple 16 bar breaks, while the whole tracks builds up it's energy apart from any breakdown.
I could go on, but I have so little time...
| quote: | Originally posted by isoterra
whatever the reason nonetheless, it really can't be as much of a problem as you make out, since long undanceable breakdowns have been around for over 10 years and have still managed to cut it in pretty much every trance/hard trance club i've been to in the last 3 years. and yes, that includes the small-time DJs as well as the bignames. a track i've recently had released even has a 3:20 breakdown (ok i'll admit that is a little over the top... i wasn't really making it with dancefloors in mind), yet still managed to keep the dancefloor when i heard it played out at peaktime once. |
See above, there were differences in the length, content, and spacing of the breakdowns and buildups 13 years ago. The breakdowns that Hardfloor were dropping made people go nuts because of all the acid lines bubbling into a frenzy and a couple other little psychological tricks they used to build that tension up to make people go wild (see also X-Cabs - Neuro above).
| quote: | Originally posted by isoterra
one part i agree with you on strangely enough is that "undanceable fluffy needs to go away"... even though i love my epic pad-fuelled beatless breakdowns & buildups, when they get followed up by gentle beats & fluffy basslines it pisses me off; i have no desire to dance & feel like the wait was for nothing. however if like in, say, mark sherry's stuff (to use a recent example you'll be familiar with), the tracks invariably have an awesome kickoff with a tough energetic kick/bass, and make the anticipation of the breakdown worthwhile (or atleast, you'd get that impression upon seeing the crowd reaction!). |
My comments about Mark Sherry's new tracks were NOT about the content of those samples on his site, but were more of a commentary about the focus on the breakdown (a 2 minute sample that plays a 1.5 minute breakdown OMG WTF LOL).
Certain string and pad sounds as well as other fluffy elements seemingly sap the enegry out of an otherwise great piece of music. It seems like many of these sounds are just slapped in there to fill space or make a track sound huge (kinda against the whole point that the original trance pioneers were going for). I don't know if I know how to describe it, but I can definitely feel it in the club when I play/have played tracks like this (one notable one was when I had the floor going at a big club and dropped Motorcycle's ATRC that I had on promo a few years back, thinking it was going to be huge, but the place just died).
| quote: | Originally posted by isoterra
saying that however... on a semi-related note, last time i was out i heard a classic piece of uplifting melodic trance; parker & clind - generator. it's energetic & fuelled by supersaws & pads, but there is no breakdown at all... it just constantly builds & builds; i was dancing crazily by the end and had to sit down after. would be kinda nice to have a few more tracks like that i guess ;) |
I HEAR THAT! I'm with ya on wanting to hear some songs where the ENTIRE TRACK builds, not just at certain points such as a breakdown (see Cygnus X tracks above). |
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| thoughtlessjex |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJMaytag
I'd love to see a trance producer step up to the plate and have the bollocks to produce a track that lacks any significant breakdown (16 bars or less). If enough did so, we could have a more interesting situation where a DJ could play say, 3 dancable tracks and then a solid track with a great breakdown. I don't think it's too tough for a dancer to get movin' for like 20 minutes and then have that killer breakdown, and I think the concept of the breakdown would be MUCH more effective if it didn't happen in EVERY SINGLE F@CK!NG TRACK!!! Listening to my collection of CD's from 1991-1996 leads me to belive (along with local DJ mix tape's of that era) that this was more of the scenario in the early 90's. |
There are actually several tracks out there that build up just as you've said. The beat never leaves, and the song slowly builds to a fevered pitch. The example that I always bring out for this is Atmos - Klein Aber Doctor. There is one point where the track builds up to a high energy section then drops to just the kick and bass, but other than that, there's no spot where the kick and bass actually stop. You never really even notice that the track is building, but at some point you stop and realize, "This track is really banging."
| quote: | | See above, there were differences in the length, content, and spacing of the breakdowns and buildups 13 years ago. The breakdowns that Hardfloor were dropping made people go nuts because of all the acid lines bubbling into a frenzy and a couple other little psychological tricks they used to build that tension up to make people go wild (see also X-Cabs - Neuro above). |
Particularly, breakdowns in trance from that period very commonly occured after the section of highest energy, signalling a low point in energy. For this reason, it sounds more natural when a simple beat starts up again after the break, because you're just building up again. |
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| 8Wonders |
| quote: | Originally posted by isoterra
btw if you're on about plummetting vinyl sales then yeah yeah we saw that a mile off, welcome to the present |
The drop of vinyl sales has a lot do with it, but unfortunately it doesn't stop at vinyl, it only begins there. This drop in sales will have a big impact on some of the labels you've all grown to love (or hate). |
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| isoterra |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJMaytag
See above, there were differences in the length, content, and spacing of the breakdowns and buildups 13 years ago. The breakdowns that Hardfloor were dropping made people go nuts because of all the acid lines bubbling into a frenzy and a couple other little psychological tricks they used to build that tension up to make people go wild (see also X-Cabs - Neuro above). |
yeah i hear you, can see the difference. but i was on about the more epic strung out type you get in uplifting today; i actually can't think of any tracks offhand from 1996 or earlier that possess that type of break but i'm sure there are plenty. the earliest i can recall off the top of my head is flaming june from 1997
| quote: | | My comments about Mark Sherry's new tracks were NOT about the content of those samples on his site, but were more of a commentary about the focus on the breakdown (a 2 minute sample that plays a 1.5 minute breakdown OMG WTF LOL). |
yeah fair enough, i was only using his tracks as an example to illustrate my point about powerful kick-offs
| quote: | | Certain string and pad sounds as well as other fluffy elements seemingly sap the enegry out of an otherwise great piece of music. |
this they do quite often, i'll agree there. but then they do this so it emphasises the energy MORE than before when the track kicks back in. it's proven pretty impactual, although many like yourself take a disliking to the stop-start nature it brings on... to each their own i guess
i do agree breakdowns would have alot more impact in a set if built up to properly, but then i think alot of big DJs do this anyway to an extent; the 'warmup' tracks may still have breakdowns of their own but they tend to be alot less in-your-face and epic, more like momentary breathers |
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| 8Wonders |
| quote: | Originally posted by Numidia
:nervous: Jesus Christ Arney... that is quite the doomsday message you just gave! "The Music you Love is Going to Die a slow and painful death!" haha... kidding.
If the "evidence" is that SS is going bankrupt, you've gotta be ing ting me, that would suck!
Truth be told, I don't care how dead the industry ever gets, as much as that would blow, I'm always going to be listening to uplifting, I don't care if i'm the last person on the world doing so. |
Somatic is not going anywhere and we'll stick to Vinyl even if it means pressing 200-300 units. |
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| isoterra |
| quote: | Originally posted by 8Wonders
Somatic is not going anywhere and we'll stick to Vinyl even if it means pressing 200-300 units. |
so what is the much much bigger serious problem? if it's going to come out anyway then why the secrecy? infact why mention it at all in the first place if you're just going to leave it at that? :rolleyes: |
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