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California Illegal Immigrant Demonstration (pg. 4)
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| Esper256 |
Wow! Some really well thought out discussion here. Immigration is definitely a tough one. In general I look at things from two perspectives. A simple economics perspective which considers people to simply be rational agents obeying some simple laws economics that seem to always hold true. And secondly seeing people in a more emotional and ethical light about what is right about personal dignity and rights.
From an economic standpoint part of the issue with illegals is:
A) As people pointed out that some illegal labor pays taxes (not all, a bunch of it is under the table, which is easy to do if you've never filed a tax return in your life. It'd be harder for someone say me to suddenly get paid under the table tomorrow and get away with it). And citizenship would ease their ability to get a refund. So it's a bit hard to calculate the tax differential of if they became legal.
THE BIG ISSUE is that many politicians in California are outraged that some illegals aren't getting all the benefits of legals. Outrage on difficulties of obtaining driver's licenses, attending public school for free, going to public in state schools for cheap and voting. Yes the last one is the key, they want to secure these people as a permanent source of voting power. Obviously if they aren't legal but they get all the benefits of being a citizen, I certainly am going to renounce my citizenship and sneak back into the country and pretty much all of us would have no motivation to be good citizens anymore.
B) Second of all there's a significant damper on our economy because a huge amount of money that immigrants earn is sent home to their families in their home country. Some illegals come here to work then go back home. A dollar can go a long ways back home so while scrimping and saving, sharing a home with a ton of other families in order to send home savings may leave them to be considered "impoverished" here, when they go home they can support their family simply through savings.
If you consider the economy of the entire country as circular flowing system, where people who work hard and get money then turn around and encourage others to work hard by looking to buy their products, you can think of the economy as having a certain "momentum". Having the earnings of these illegals leave the country decreases the momentum of our economy.
Now if an immigrant is living here legally there's nothing wrong with them sending savings to their families, they have a right to do that. But what gets me is that the reason they are doing this is because our system of motivating hard work by rewarding the people who have skills and employ them daily (otherwise known under the besieged brand name: capitalism) is what makes the dollar able to feed whole families back in South America. Then our news channels and what have you glorify the socialist countries down South that can barely provide anything for their citizens. If their governments and people could get their act together and allow their economies to gain strength in a free market we wouldn't see the need to employ the entire American continent's population and everyone would be better off.
From my standpoint, I always get a kick out of the lazy Mexican jokes (how to kill a Mexican: hide the food stamps under his work boots) etc because all the day laborers I've ever seen working, work very very hard, and their labor is a benefit to the country in general.
I take issue with two things really: some factions of our governments stance to completely ignore the law. To give rights / access to the benefits of citizenship without ever assuming the responsibilities. And also the poor state of other countries economies and our own media and peer pressure to hate the free market economy which if championed instead of disparaged could help bring prosperity to other countries so we wouldn't be sitting here trying to figure out how to handle the dilemma of mass illegal immigration. |
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| gehzumteufel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Esper256
Wow! Some really well thought out discussion here. Immigration is definitely a tough one. In general I look at things from two perspectives. A simple economics perspective which considers people to simply be rational agents obeying some simple laws economics that seem to always hold true. And secondly seeing people in a more emotional and ethical light about what is right about personal dignity and rights.
From an economic standpoint part of the issue with illegals is:
A) As people pointed out that some illegal labor pays taxes (not all, a bunch of it is under the table, which is easy to do if you've never filed a tax return in your life. It'd be harder for someone say me to suddenly get paid under the table tomorrow and get away with it). And citizenship would ease their ability to get a refund. So it's a bit hard to calculate the tax differential of if they became legal.
THE BIG ISSUE is that many politicians in California are outraged that some illegals aren't getting all the benefits of legals. Outrage on difficulties of obtaining driver's licenses, attending public school for free, going to public in state schools for cheap and voting. Yes the last one is the key, they want to secure these people as a permanent source of voting power. Obviously if they aren't legal but they get all the benefits of being a citizen, I certainly am going to renounce my citizenship and sneak back into the country and pretty much all of us would have no motivation to be good citizens anymore.
B) Second of all there's a significant damper on our economy because a huge amount of money that immigrants earn is sent home to their families in their home country. Some illegals come here to work then go back home. A dollar can go a long ways back home so while scrimping and saving, sharing a home with a ton of other families in order to send home savings may leave them to be considered "impoverished" here, when they go home they can support their family simply through savings.
If you consider the economy of the entire country as circular flowing system, where people who work hard and get money then turn around and encourage others to work hard by looking to buy their products, you can think of the economy as having a certain "momentum". Having the earnings of these illegals leave the country decreases the momentum of our economy.
Now if an immigrant is living here legally there's nothing wrong with them sending savings to their families, they have a right to do that. But what gets me is that the reason they are doing this is because our system of motivating hard work by rewarding the people who have skills and employ them daily (otherwise known under the besieged brand name: capitalism) is what makes the dollar able to feed whole families back in South America. Then our news channels and what have you glorify the socialist countries down South that can barely provide anything for their citizens. If their governments and people could get their act together and allow their economies to gain strength in a free market we wouldn't see the need to employ the entire American continent's population and everyone would be better off.
From my standpoint, I always get a kick out of the lazy Mexican jokes (how to kill a Mexican: hide the food stamps under his work boots) etc because all the day laborers I've ever seen working, work very very hard, and their labor is a benefit to the country in general.
I take issue with two things really: some factions of our governments stance to completely ignore the law. To give rights / access to the benefits of citizenship without ever assuming the responsibilities. And also the poor state of other countries economies and our own media and peer pressure to hate the free market economy which if championed instead of disparaged could help bring prosperity to other countries so we wouldn't be sitting here trying to figure out how to handle the dilemma of mass illegal immigration. |
the problem really comes down to the people that are NOT playing by our rules are the ones that are affected. if they play by our rules they have no problems. as i stated earlier only latin america has a HUGE wait to get in. other countries have a 2-3 year wait. they need to have a quicker process for validating and accepting or rejecting people. |
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| djnaeblis |
| quote: | Originally posted by DjWoody
In California for instance...
- It will grant Drivers Licenses. By doing so, you won't have to worry about getting into an accident and not getting your car to get fixed.
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I don't think we should give illegal immigrants drivers licenses, that could be used as a form of identification. However, a certificate or some permit to drive would be acceptable. |
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| DjWoody |
| quote: | Originally posted by djnaeblis
I don't think we should give illegal immigrants drivers licenses, that could be used as a form of identification. However, a certificate or some permit to drive would be acceptable. |
So you wouldn't want to be able to keep track of them? If you give them a drivers permit, that would still be a form of identification. When a police officer stops them and asks for a "DRIVERS LICENSE" they would hand over a permit with their NAME ON IT, IDENTIFING THEM.
Think about it, they don't get licenses, we all loose! BAD! I know if I get hit, I want my car fixed! |
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| gehzumteufel |
| quote: | Originally posted by DjWoody
So you wouldn't want to be able to keep track of them? If you give them a drivers permit, that would still be a form of identification. When a police officer stops them and asks for a "DRIVERS LICENSE" they would hand over a permit with their NAME ON IT, IDENTIFING THEM.
Think about it, they don't get licenses, we all loose! BAD! I know if I get hit, I want my car fixed! |
aingmen jesse! |
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| Esper256 |
Giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses is a form of ignoring the law really.
Technically by the law you aren't allowed to be here. And even though you are walking into this government building exposing yourself as not being a valid citizen, we're not going to try to do what it says we will in our laws but instead offer you validation of being here even though we're still technically going to say you aren't allowed to be here.
It's a problem of mixed messages. How can something be illegal but sanctioned through government policy?
If you are going to start passing laws that sanction illegal immigration, you need to adjust the laws so that it's not illegal anymore. And if it's going to be considered illegal then they should actually treat it as such.
I agree that driver's with no insurance is a bad thing. But the issue goes deeper than not having driver's licenses. And I think it should start by eliminating the hypocrisy of our current system one way or the other so that what we say our policy is, is what our policy is. |
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| gehzumteufel |
| thats totally true. we need to really enforce the laws that we have now instead of creating new ones. |
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| Shafer8 |
| They should give every immigrant amnesty and a green card in exchange for that wall the want to build. 12 million people building a wall should not take that long. Do it like everyone has to give 2 weeks of work then they get there card. |
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| DjWoody |
Think about this... Not giving them licenses is NOT GOING TO PREVENT THEM FROM DRIVING! They're going to drive wether they have a license or not. I would rather have them do it legally, and be protected, than having to pay the costs my self.
Laws get broken by everyone. I'm pretty sure you all have broke the law at some point. Be realistic, instead of stating the obvious, deal with reality and try to fix it. I know that illegal immigrants broke the law by entering the country, so have my of you have broken the law by getting a FAKE ID. The difference is that it was never such a big deal for you, because you are legally here. But if an illegal immigrant gets a FAKE ID, then it becomes a bigger issue when in reality it's the same thing.
Providing REAL Licenses/ID's will prevent FRAUD, will allow us to keep track of where everyone is, and save us $$$.
Back in the early 90's, everyone was allowed to have a drivers license weather you were here legally or not. Did it cause a lot of problems? No, they all arose after it became illegal for immigrants to have one. |
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| DjWoody |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shafer8
They should give every immigrant amnesty and a green card in exchange for that wall the want to build. 12 million people building a wall should not take that long. Do it like everyone has to give 2 weeks of work then they get there card. |
You know what, it may sound like a joke, but I guarantee you, that MANY, MANY, MANY immigrants will do it FREE OF CHARGE as long as they can get their green card. AWESOME IDEA, and way cheaper than having to travel to Juarez, Mexico! |
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| Shafer8 |
| quote: | | You know what, it may sound like a joke, but I guarantee you, that MANY, MANY, MANY immigrants will do it FREE OF CHARGE as long as they can get their green card. AWESOME IDEA, and way cheaper than having to travel to Juarez, Mexico! |
Thats what I say, this idea kills 2 birds with one stone, it gives amnestry to the people are here already and keep whom ever is not here out and apply for things they way they are proposing.
Exactly each illegal person checks in some where along the borders for 2 weeks and works for free. they could make a cycle so that all business is not interupted or at least some what not interupted. It is a totally fair trade as they would be helping secure the borders!
This bill could have been passesd and walls already being built, I should run for congress! |
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| djnaeblis |
| quote: | Originally posted by DjWoody
Think about this... Not giving them licenses is NOT GOING TO PREVENT THEM FROM DRIVING! They're going to drive wether they have a license or not. I would rather have them do it legally, and be protected, than having to pay the costs my self.
Laws get broken by everyone. I'm pretty sure you all have broke the law at some point. Be realistic, instead of stating the obvious, deal with reality and try to fix it. I know that illegal immigrants broke the law by entering the country, so have my of you have broken the law by getting a FAKE ID. The difference is that it was never such a big deal for you, because you are legally here. But if an illegal immigrant gets a FAKE ID, then it becomes a bigger issue when in reality it's the same thing.
Providing REAL Licenses/ID's will prevent FRAUD, will allow us to keep track of where everyone is, and save us $$$.
Back in the early 90's, everyone was allowed to have a drivers license weather you were here legally or not. Did it cause a lot of problems? No, they all arose after it became illegal for immigrants to have one. |
I think the problem is bigger though, because if you give them drivers licenses, many places will no longer accept them as a form of ID.
example: airlines will no longer accept them, under the new national ID legislature, I think they have threatened to no longer accept CA drivers licenses etc... Thats why I think a permit could be a better alternative. |
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