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What The War on Terror Is Really About (pg. 10)
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| emc^2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Purple
I know what you guys are talking about, I have witnessed them firsthand in Kashmir; how some of them take oaths to kill Hindus and stuff before being recruited..
Can anyone with Koran confirm/crosscheck this? I hope this is not just another conspiracy theories floating on internet.. |
I guess expecting you to use google is a bit too much, eh?
Here:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jihad |
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| emc^2 |
I personally found this one to be one of the most enchanting:
| quote: | | 24. Tabari IX:69 "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We Fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will Fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. killing him is a small matter to us." |
don't be lazy and see the rest of the quotes by clicking on the link in my post above. This should give you a little taste of what you're up against. Makes Zionist extremism seem like a child's play. |
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| Blake |
| I was born and raised Muslim and I wasn't taught anything like what's mentioned in the above quotes. I'm no longer Muslim though. I'd have to dust off my Qur'an and search for the context of those excerpts. Most of the young Arab Muslims that I speak with don't preach anything along such violent lines. One guy did explain that Americans etc don't really know what 'Jihad' means. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
I downloaded it prior to watching it. Here's a new link
code:
h**p://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=ED29DA413A7A25B3
(Don't mess it up - I'm not going to upload again.)
"Enjoy" |
Thanks trancaholic; sorry Purple, it was a long weekend here and I was 'unplugged' all weekend :D |
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| Purple |
| War on terror is a Jihad. |
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| metalgearsolid |
| What the war on terror is really about is making the whole mideast populated with American soldiers so when oil starts running out we are in command. That is the strategic oil plan that we Americans have.:) |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
That's a twisted interpretation of Islam, which all Islamic extremism is, which suggests to me it is the interpretors to blame for creating anti-Semitic views, not the religion itself |
I've said it before: I don't care about what "real" Islam is. The fact is that there *is* some religion which advocates wiping out non-believers (and specifically Jews), and that it has too many adherents. Whether its a perversion of some "true" Islam or not is irrelevant.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
So how do you explain the PLO's hatred of Israel/Jews? (And the reason I said before I don't understand what you mean, and still don't, is when you say "you as a socialist do not believe in the unjust cause of the poor" - please explain) |
I don't get the PLO thing? I would explain PLO's hatred of Israel as caused by hurt pride, envy, and a sense of justice not being done, mixed with age old loathing of Jews.
Anyways, my comment about the unjust cause of the poor: I've met some socialists, and most instinctively take the side of the poor in conflicts which they are just introduced to. It seems that they feel that the very fact that one party is poor, should be alleviated by automatically assuming innocence. In some cases this tendency becomes problematic, making people functional blind to evidence that puts the poor in a bad light. I suspected that you suffered from the same.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
The reason my opinions are as they have been, is because you are "hell-bent" on explaining why New York, Washington, Madrid, London, Bali, etc, etc, were bombed is because the perpetrators were trying to take over the world. I find that idea absured and untrue. I also find it most unhelpful in our efforts to make sure attacks like this do not happen again (if you have the wrong reason why these attacks have taken place, you're not gonna be able to stop them right?). |
Show me one place where I have advocated that terrorists' main motivation is the Islamist agenda. I've stressed it before, and I'll repeat it for you, that I do not think of terrorism as a particular problem. What I think is a particular problem is the gradual appeasement of Muslims in Western countries, due to fear and *ignorance* of the scope of the Islamist's agenda. I consider the one-sided condemnation of Israel, the lack of condemnation of Hizbollah in "peace marches", and the call for a cease-fire *without* a disarmament of Hizbollah, as more steps on the way towards abandoning the principles that made the West a success (you'll probably disagree with this).
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Now I accept that many groups and individuals have the dream of the whole world becoming Islamic under Sharia law, and I shall entertain your belief that this is the ultimate aim of all Islamists for a moment. Consider that that is true - well it is completely irrelevant. The first stage of this Islamist aim would be the reestablishment of the Caliphate (as your Hizbut-Tahrir state). Only then would they go onto conquere the world. Well they will never acheive the first stage of that aim and establish the Caliphate so they will never be in a position to gather enough power to begin their second stage, so it's irrelevant. |
Why would they never achieve their first goal? Why would they necessarily have to start with acquiring all of the Middle East? Especially now that it seems to be going so splendidly with taking over the UK by exploiting your slack laws, guilt, and fear?
And, most importantly, why is lack of capability enough to make something irrelevant? Say some looney wanted to bag your girlfriend, but she was not interested. Would you be indifferent to his repeated attempts to make inroads?
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
But does my belief, or your's, have any relevance one way or another to our security? Are we less at risk if we take my view, or are we more at risk if we take your view? I don't think the level of risk would be any different - New York was attacked, as were all the rest, and many more attacks are planned for either the short term goal (my view) or the long term goal (your view) and they need to be dealt with (and the solution is the same whether you are right or I am right)... But I'll ask again, can you honestly hold your hand on your heart and tell me that those attacks were carried out for the specific purpose of taking over those countries? |
You haven't asked this before, but I'll answer anyway: I *honestly* think that the main motivation of the actual terrorists in the west is envy. I don't think the terrorist himself is actually aware of that, but that he justifies his actions to himself by the plight of his co-believers in the Middle East and how he believes this is all the fault of the West. However, I do believe that the people responsible for recruiting, brain-washing, and training the terrorist are motivated mainly by the quest for the global Caliphate.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
But you are quite right in your comments about Islam being a converting religion and if they got their way and established the Caliphate they will attempt to convert, but it still would not be feasible to do this by force (they would not only be unsuccessful, they would probably lose thir new Caliphate as well) it would be more likely (and also alluded to in the groups you mention) to do it the Saudi/Wahabbist way by a PR method through Madrasses etc (again, my opinion, I expect you to disagree)
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Why could they not be succesful by force? It seems that the processes in Sudan, Nigeria, Egypt, Afghanistan, and Somalia are going pretty well? And why would they necessarily loose the Caliphate if they tried to do this?
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
No you offered a daft response that suggested you were clutching at straws trying to find any old excuse as to why Hizballah have not, and plan not to, take over Lebanon and establish a state governed by Sharia law. I was merely pointing that out. |
If the response was so stupid, you should have no troubles shooting it down in flames with your superior arguments. I notice that you have not, and draw my own conclusions. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
I don't get the PLO thing? I would explain PLO's hatred of Israel as caused by hurt pride, envy, and a sense of justice not being done, mixed with age old loathing of Jews. |
And you don't think Hamas or their supporters are affected by the same issues (of which you miss dozens out, but we're trying to portray Israel as some kind of Godly being that could never do any wrong, so we wont mention them) The point is, the PLO are ardent secularists, yet they waged a war against Israel just like Hamas have, so you CANNOT explain all the animosity towards Israel on religion alone.
| quote: | | Anyways, my comment about the unjust cause of the poor: I've met some socialists, and most instinctively take the side of the poor in conflicts which they are just introduced to. It seems that they feel that the very fact that one party is poor, should be alleviated by automatically assuming innocence. In some cases this tendency becomes problematic, making people functional blind to evidence that puts the poor in a bad light. I suspected that you suffered from the same. |
Well I'm not sure what you mean by "just introduced to"? That the same as just saying "you don't know what you're talking about"? And no, I do not automatically assume poor people must be in the right, what an absurd suggestion to make!
| quote: | | Show me one place where I have advocated that terrorists' main motivation is the Islamist agenda. I've stressed it before, and I'll repeat it for you, that I do not think of terrorism as a particular problem. What I think is a particular problem is the gradual appeasement of Muslims in Western countries, due to fear and *ignorance* of the scope of the Islamist's agenda. I consider the one-sided condemnation of Israel, the lack of condemnation of Hizbollah in "peace marches", and the call for a cease-fire *without* a disarmament of Hizbollah, as more steps on the way towards abandoning the principles that made the West a success (you'll probably disagree with this). |
If I knew exactly what you mean by "appeasment in Muslims in Western countries" I'm sure I would disagree with you
| quote: | Why would they never achieve their first goal? Why would they necessarily have to start with acquiring all of the Middle East? Especially now that it seems to be going so splendidly with taking over the UK by exploiting your slack laws, guilt, and fear?
And, most importantly, why is lack of capability enough to make something irrelevant? Say some looney wanted to bag your girlfriend, but she was not interested. Would you be indifferent to his repeated attempts to make inroads? |
You're losing the plot mate. You say the Muslims are taking over the UK, well I take offence to that as it smacks of racism. The AIM of Islamists is to establish the Caliphate. Why would they start with the UK (to humour your rediculous suggestion)?! Have you ever actually done any independant research into the aims of Islamists? Or do you just go on what you are told by the American propaganda machine? "All Muslims are the enemy. The West can do no wrong. Therefore you must support America's quest to create a world conductive to our interests"
And what makes me laugh the most is you will go on about Islamic propaganda!!!
| quote: | | You haven't asked this before, but I'll answer anyway: I *honestly* think that the main motivation of the actual terrorists in the west is envy. I don't think the terrorist himself is actually aware of that, but that he justifies his actions to himself by the plight of his co-believers in the Middle East and how he believes this is all the fault of the West. However, I do believe that the people responsible for recruiting, brain-washing, and training the terrorist are motivated mainly by the quest for the global Caliphate. |
Where do you get your information from?! What are you basing this on?! Some random clip of a random bloke stood on the street on London ting bricks over Iraq saying "we will rule the world"?!?!?!?! I sing "we're the greatest football team in the world" at my footy teams matches, but we're not, we're !
Do you get any of your information from anywhere other than Western propaganda outlets???
Or is your whole opinion based on that one group you have managed to find? How big is that group? How representative are they of the Islamist movement? Why aren't they as famous as al-Qaida or Hamas or Hizballah?
| quote: | | Why could they not be succesful by force? It seems that the processes in Sudan, Nigeria, Egypt, Afghanistan, and Somalia are going pretty well? And why would they necessarily loose the Caliphate if they tried to do this? |
Oh I dunno? Cos we'd nuclear bomb them back to the age of the first Caliphate perhaps?
| quote: | | If the response was so stupid, you should have no troubles shooting it down in flames with your superior arguments. I notice that you have not, and draw my own conclusions. |
Your argument is that Iran will not allow Hizballah to take over Lebanon (Syria has influence over Hizballah but not much). But you believe Iran wants to take over the world and convert it to Islam. So what is the reason Iran will not allow Hizballah to take over Lebanon?
The simple fact is, and your indoctrination by anti-Islamic propaganda will never allow you to believe this, but Hizballah respect the confessional groups in Lebanon. They respect that 40% of Lebanon is Christian and don't particularly want to live in an Islamic state. If they wanted to create an Islamic state and convert Christians to Islam they could (well not the convert part) but they chose not to.
Over to you for more propaganda filled rhetoric... |
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| shaolin_Z |
| I'm pretty disappointed in you trancaholic for buying into all this bigoted propaganda bull. It's sad to see someone with an intellect such as yourself abandon rationality for fear, ignorance, and (possibly) prejudice. I guess my comments won't make a difference since you've already made up your mind (or more like closed it). :( |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I'm pretty disappointed in you trancaholic for buying into all this bigoted propaganda bull. It's sad to see someone with an intellect such as yourself abandon rationality for fear, ignorance, and (possibly) prejudice. I guess my comments won't make a difference since you've already made up your mind (or more like closed it). :( |
He was never like this before those cartoons!!
He really took it personally! |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
He was never like this before those cartoons!!
He really took it personally! |
I know, that's the really sad part. :( |
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| trancaholic |
^ and ^^: Save your ad hominems and straw men, I don't care much for them. (And just for the record Smiley, I've been harsh to whiners for a long time. You wouldn't have to go further back than to the riots in France last year, to find me refusing to accept the "they're poor and disadvantaged" as an excuse for stupid behaviour.)
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
And you don't think Hamas or their supporters are affected by the same issues (of which you miss dozens out, but we're trying to portray Israel as some kind of Godly being that could never do any wrong, so we wont mention them) The point is, the PLO are ardent secularists, yet they waged a war against Israel just like Hamas have, so you CANNOT explain all the animosity towards Israel on religion alone. |
This will be the last post of yours that I reply to, unless you up the quality of your arguments. You consistently either misrepresent or ignore my arguments and frankly, I'm feeling that I gain little or nothing by arguing with you. Take this quoted bit for instance, *I* did not state that animosity towards Israel is based on religion only - *you* made a (so far ill-argued) claim of a "more than half" percentage of hatred being caused by Israeli and Western aggression. Furthermore, I have not portrayed Israel as some "Godly being that could never do anything wrong". In fact, quite the opposite, as Yoepus and TranceGiant might be able to remember.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Well I'm not sure what you mean by "just introduced to"? That the same as just saying "you don't know what you're talking about"? And no, I do not automatically assume poor people must be in the right, what an absurd suggestion to make! |
Absurd it may be to you, which was why it was a question - unlike the array of ad hominems and strawmens that I have endured from your hand.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
If I knew exactly what you mean by "appeasment in Muslims in Western countries" I'm sure I would disagree with you
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Of course it's all western propaganda and lies, but I've quoted a list of articles in some other thread, and here's a few more examples of either actively caving in to ridiculous demands or lack of political will to deal with radical elements on the ground:
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Austral...ish_citizenship
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006180300,00.html
http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/005483.php
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...2230761,00.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...2291753,00.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,...430136,,00.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006300314,00.html
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
You're losing the plot mate. You say the Muslims are taking over the UK, well I take offence to that as it smacks of racism. The AIM of Islamists is to establish the Caliphate. Why would they start with the UK (to humour your rediculous suggestion)?! Have you ever actually done any independant research into the aims of Islamists? Or do you just go on what you are told by the American propaganda machine? "All Muslims are the enemy. The West can do no wrong. Therefore you must support America's quest to create a world conductive to our interests"
And what makes me laugh the most is you will go on about Islamic propaganda!!!
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I did not say that "Muslims are taking over the UK". I said that *Islamists* *want* to take over the UK. Moreover, polls show that Muslims in the UK see themselves as Muslims first, and Brits second or third, and that nearly half support the introduction of Sharia. The fact that no UK-politician with any kind of influence seem to care about these facts, makes the wishes of Islamists relevant.
Moreover, I did not say the Islamists want to start with the UK - *you* said that they wanted to start with the Middle East. My objection was that Islamists would welcome a sharia state no matter where it is. Finally, reading neither news papers nor owning a TV, I wish to distance myself to that last strawman of yours.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
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| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Where do you get your information from?! What are you basing this on?! Some random clip of a random bloke stood on the street on London ting bricks over Iraq saying "we will rule the world"?!?!?!?! I sing "we're the greatest football team in the world" at my footy teams matches, but we're not, we're ! |
My sources are first and foremost articles linked to by blogs (left and right, fun and serious) or here on TA. I don't consider Arab and Muslim leaders "random blokes". Your football team, and English traditions related to it is of no importance to this discussion. Moreover, I couldn't care less if your team was "the greates football team in the world". I do care that someone wants to "behead those who insult Islam".
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Or is your whole opinion based on that one group you have managed to find? How big is that group? How representative are they of the Islamist movement? Why aren't they as famous as al-Qaida or Hamas or Hizballah? |
I don't think that there is such a thing as a "Islamist movement", but a series of groups which all share the idea of the Caliphate as the first or second step on their agenda. After that is achieved they would fight internally over interpretations or tradition.
As to the fame comment: They are not famous because they work by peaceful means, such as exploiting democracy and the West's respect for freedom of opinion. This is not covered much by western media, as it deals spurrs philosophical hard questions, unlike bombs, rockets, and security fences.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Oh I dunno? Cos we'd nuclear bomb them back to the age of the first Caliphate perhaps? |
I don't believe the west has the will to do that. Currently apostates are executed in some of the countries I mentioned, but this doesn't even warrant condemnation from the likes of Bush and Blair.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Your argument is that Iran will not allow Hizballah to take over Lebanon (Syria has influence over Hizballah but not much). But you believe Iran wants to take over the world and convert it to Islam. So what is the reason Iran will not allow Hizballah to take over Lebanon?
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I said that it is *Syria* that does not want Hizbollah to take over Lebanon. Do you subject my posts to some kind of random blur filter prior to reading them?
And to address your point: I believe that Iran see Syria as an important ally, and wouldn't risk losing its support by forcing a decision on something as insignificant as a small area of land which already is mainly inhabited by Muslims.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
The simple fact is, and your indoctrination by anti-Islamic propaganda will never allow you to believe this, but Hizballah respect the confessional groups in Lebanon. They respect that 40% of Lebanon is Christian and don't particularly want to live in an Islamic state. If they wanted to create an Islamic state and convert Christians to Islam they could (well not the convert part) but they chose not to.
Over to you for more propaganda filled rhetoric... |
Over to you for more twisting and distortion of arguments. |
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